Do you pray?

[paige]

Jundo's recent talk about Kannon made me wonder how many people on this forum pray to Buddhas/Bodhisattvas. Or if there were members who follow another religion along with their Zen practice, and pray to some deity.

I'm now attending a Chinese temple. Ch'an and Chinese Pureland are almost always practised together, so the temple is always ringing with "Namo Amituofo" (Japanese=Amida Butsu, Sanskrit=Amitabha Buddha) and "Namo Guan Shi Yin Pusa" (Japanese=Kannon, Sanskrit=Avalokiteshvara - the bodhisattva of compassion).

I've been in pretty rough shape for the past while and am undergoing surgical evaluation for medically refractory epilepsy. The nuns keep saying that they are praying very hard to Guan Yin on my behalf, and got me a CD of the Great Compassion mantra to listen to over and over again.

What does anyone else here think about the usefulness of prayer or mantra recitation? I feel deeply honoured and cared about when people pray for me, and I try to really put my heart into it when we recite mantras for other people. But I feel pretty uncomfortable (and maybe even a bit silly) about praying.

[Jun]

Prayer is superstition, superstition is not Buddhism. According to the Buddha.

donald buddha e.png

[cdshrack]

sometimes i pray. may not be very Buddhist of me, but then again i thought part of the fun of practicing Buddhism was that it's not necessarily a religion, more of suggestions of things that worked well for some guy whom a lot of people held in high regard.

do i pray to anyone/anything in particular? i'm not really sure, i kinda think we're all part of the same big thing, whatever it is, so maybe i'm just praying to myself, or at very least to something which is a larger part of "me", if there is even such a thing as "me".

superstitious? maybe. but i suppose i've changed my prayers over the year to correlate with changes in my beliefs, and now i just rather hope i'll have some glimmer of understanding as to how any given outcome can be a positive force in the world (and save/free all sentient beings, yada yada yada - aren't the vows a bit of a prayer, too?)

[Jundo]

Re: Do you pray?

Hi Paige,

The nuns keep saying that they are praying very hard to Guan Yin on my behalf, and got me a CD of the Great Compassion mantra to listen to over and over again.

What does anyone else here think about the usefulness of prayer or mantra recitation? I feel deeply honoured and cared about when people pray for me, and I try to really put my heart into it when we recite mantras for other people. But I feel pretty uncomfortable (and maybe even a bit silly) about praying.

One of the recent talks was pretty much on this topic.

http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2007/06 ... i-xli.html

I do not pray, but I do 'wink' at the universe in recognition that I am trying my best to be a human being, and I pretty much accept what the universe brings my way. I do not know what (or not what) is at the controls ... if there is anything/one/whatever in control ... yet I wink wink. Perhaps the best prayer, or wink, just is to be grateful for what we have been given. :wink: The hardest part is to embrace what we have been given even if we do not care for it, and even if we do not know "why".

I do believe that we need not chant, and need not pray, but that Zazen is a complete act with nothing to add to it. In this way, it represents your life, with nothing to add to it even as you feel something lacks.

Praying cannot hurt. I feel that it is not necessary, however. I feel that if there is someone/something/whatever in the universe that wants my prayers, it/him/her can have my Zazen instread. Of course, because prayer cannot hurt, and might help, why not do it?

Gassho (with prayer hands and a wink), Jundo

[Ryumon]

I agree with Jun about it being superstition. I'd rather find insight in looking at the bees flitting around the flowers next to my house, or the clouds drifting by in the sky. The idea of asking any intercessionary being to do anything strikes me as vain, hubristic, and totally illogical.

Kirk

[Bansho]

Hi Paige,

Paige wrote:

I feel deeply honoured and cared about when people pray for me, and I try to really put my heart into it when we recite mantras for other people.

Personally I don't pray (to whom or what should I pray to???), but at the same time I wouldn't say it's worthless. Based on what you've said it obviously has a special meaning for you, so why feel uncomfortable? In any case, I won't pray for you, but I do truly wish you all the best for your health.

Gassho
Kenneth

[Martin]

The idea that there is some one / thing "out there" who will or might intercede to answer my need of the moment, but who did nothing to answer the cries of, say, those in Auschwitz or on the planes on September 11 is not one I find easy to live with, not least because it suggests a degree of capriciousness on the part of the person / thing being prayed to which is rather scary.

But if it works for you, Paige, go for it.

And St Francis of Assis said of prayer "When we pray to God we must be seeking nothing - nothing" which maybe suggests that prayer and sazen are closer than we (ok, I) might think.

Gassho

Martin

[wills]

I look a prayer from a different perspective. I don't pray but I do talk to myself.

Sometimes my internal dialog is about wanting things to be different, about worrying about the future, about regrets from the past, about my anxieties, focusing on my many "fun defilements". Pretty plain to me that this type of dialog does NOT connect me with reality yet it is what I think of when I presented with traditional prayer.

More and more my internal dialog has been changing towards being compassionate with my fellow humans, encouraging me to be present, to investigate my experience, to ask who hears and who thinks. This feels like a path worth exploring more. Hence my participation here. Maybe this is a non-traditional form of prayer but you won't catch me calling it that. :wink:

Neither of these modes of dialog feels like the point of Zen. When Joko Beck uses prayer and zazen in the same sentence (Everyday Zen p.17), she is equating being in the moment without ANY dialog as both zazen and prayer. If this is what the word prayer means, I'm all over it like clouds in the sky ...

[paige]

Thanks everyone.

I have feelings similar to Martin's - I find that discussions of miracles and the power of prayer tick me off. Like cancer patients who die just didn't pray as hard as the ones who recover?

But I don't think my opinion really matters all that much right now. I mean, if someone says that they've added my name to their prayer list, I'm not going to say "Well, take it off! Prayer is just superstition." And if temple members say "So-and-so's father is dying, we're going to the hospital to say a sutra for him," I wouldn't say "Count me out, I don't believe in chanting." And when the nuns offer me a "mantra machine" that plays the Great Compassion Mantra on an endless loop, to put by my pillow when I'm in hospital - I'm not going to tell them to put the mantra machine where the sun don't shine.

[paige]

Re: Do you pray?

Hi Paige,

I do not know what (or not what) is at the controls ... if there is anything/one/whatever in control ... yet I wink wink.

Gassho (with prayer hands and a wink), Jundo

Or, as someone in another forum I haunt likes to say:

"Dear God, if you exist, please help me! And if you don't exist…help me anyway!" ~ Brother Theodore

And Thank you Kat.

[Bansho]

Re: do you pray

Hi Keishin,

I do chant the Great Heart of Wisdom Sutra. This is not a prayer and it doesn't ask for anything. It explains zazen in a nutshell.

I do too, although in my case, it's typically 'silent chanting' (hmm, not sure if there's a proper word for it. :roll: ). I decided to memorize it about a year ago so I can chant/think it wherever and whenever I wish to, typically once a day. For me it's definitely not prayer, but more so a reminder or a guide post along the Way, and I experience it differently each time.

Gassho
Kenneth

[paige]

I'm definitely uncomfortable with the idea of praying for myself, of petitioning Guan Yin or whoever to intercede on my behalf.

But -

If nothing else, I think prayer can be useful as a way to "be with" the sick and dying (and their families). And being with the dying is, I think, absolutely necessary.

Saying sutras at someone's hospital bedside may not do anything to help them find an auspicious rebirth, but it's a comforting ritual. I'm there, I'm saying something. Not anything original, but I'd have run out of original things to say pretty quickly anyway, especially if the patient's not capable of making conversation. I know other people bring in favourite books to read out loud, I think it's basically the same kind of thing.

Kind of like how the significance of the cosmic mudra might just be "Ya gotta do something with your hands!"

[Keishin]

do you pray

Hello Paige:
I really resonated with the words 'be with' because I think that is all we ever get to do. And I think when we fully do it, there is nothing else for us to do!
There is no need to distinguish between the well and living and the ill and dying--being with is being with--nor is there someone or a situation more deserving of 'being with' than another.

Everything you do, every circumstance you find yourself in you are 'being with' because that's all there is.

In my experience, it's when my stinkin' thinkin' is going on that I end up with a gap between 'me' and what is. When thoughts just bubble up and away, they don't cloud my view, but when I get caught up in not only adding on conjectures and suppositions to thoughts, but then judgements about myself (or others) because of my conjectures and suppositions--well let me tell you, it's more entertaining than any film Hollywood could produce and just like Hollywood films, ain't any of it real!

When reading a sutra at someone's bedside in hospital, just read a sutra at a someone's bedside in hospital. Who knows about auspicious rebirth in the future? I do know there is rebirth moment by moment--my cells regenerate--even as I am aging--there is still more of me regenerating itself than not--could this moment by moment rebirth be anything other than auspicious?
Everytime you open your mouth it is fresh and original, even if you've said everything before--just like sitting zazen on the cushion--each moment is fresh and like no other.
Conversation takes place on many levels more than just spoken words between people. Without a single word uttered, rich conversations can and do take place.

What stood out in your comments, for me, was the central aspect of 'being with,' thank you.

It sounds as if you are doing hospice work, or work of similar nature. It is very important work.
My sister was caring for her father in law in her home, she was not trained in this area and now recognizes that she experienced 'burn out'.
I urge everyone I know engaged in this field to take good care of themselves!
gassho
Keishin
and thank you for 'being with' the forum and for starting this topic going!

[cdshrack]

Thank you, Keishin.

"being with" is "being with", like you say, and is the most important thing we can do. whether with someone or with the task at hand.

which is why "multi-tasking" becomes so difficult. :?

Gassho. cd

[egbrooks]

Hi All,
When I think of prayer, I think of contemplative prayer as advocated by St. Francis, Thomas Merton, Keating, etc. It's the kind of prayer that brings you into God's light so that there is no separation between you and God.

However, I was just poking around online to find some cool quotes about prayer and came across a great debate in the Christian community as to whether or not contemplative prayer is actually prayer or the work of the devil. It seems that the evangelical crowd is either skeptical of contemplative prayer, or even vehemently opposed to it.

I'm inclined, like Merton and the others, that being closer to God in the form of quiet, meditative-like prayer makes more sense. I don't see how "asking" for anything is beneficial since God already knows what you need.

Anyway, I'm not Christian, but I found the argument amongst the community interesting. In fact, it seems the definition of prayer is a difficult thing to nail down.

I hope everyone is well, *wink*
Eric