Shobogenzo Translations

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Shobogenzo Translations

Hey Jundo,

I made the comment only because I recognize many of the same problems (minus the brilliance) in myself....and also to gently prod Taigu about the bodybuilding remark, LOL.

I know you have quite a bit of tolerance of people's issues - I wasn't taking a swipe at Cross.

I didn't think you were.

I thought you were. I'm glad you weren't!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Jundo]

Re: Shobogenzo Translations

Hi,

Someone just wrote me to ask how in the world I could say this ...

I have seen enough folks to know that this practice does leave almost all people better ... and often does work an effective cure (or is one part of the cure) ... from depression, addiction, compulsive disorders, eating disorders, anger issues, self loathing ... you name it.

... when, on another thread recently, Taigu and I have been jumping around insisting that ...

... Zazen is pointless ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3442

... that ya have to drop all thought of "getting somewhere" ... using it to "fix things" ... using it as a tool or a treatment for what ails us human beings ...

ISN'T THAT A BLOODY CONTRADICTION! :shock:

Well, in this Crazily-Sane Shikantaza Way ... one way to get somewhere is to truly, through and through, abandon all need to get somewhere else ... one way to fill the hole within us is to drop all thought of something lacking and feel the 'whole' ... one way to fix things is to realize there is nothing to fix ...

... all while moving forward, quitting the bad habits, fixing what needs to be fixed.

The only way to really really really get the Point of Zazen ... is to truly reach the point where Zazen is just pointless.

Getting to where's nothing missing and nothing to add ... even amid all the things in life missing, we wish we could take away or add ... is a Tremendous Addition!

Yes, even if not a perfect cure (though sometimes it is that too) ... doing so will work wonders in helping with depression, addiction, compulsive disorders, eating disorders, anger issues, self loathing. It may not cure your cancer or fix your busted marriage ... but it may allow one to be at peace with all that too.

Zazen is timeless and pointless ... but don't ever think that there is no point, or that it's just a waste of time.

Gassho, Jundo

[disastermouse]

Re: Shobogenzo Translations

Isn't it weird that often when you stop trying so hard to fix yourself, your demons often naturally diminish?

Like shadowboxing - when you stop fighting, your shadow stops fighting.

Of course, it's not always like this, but surprisingly often. Usually, I forget this and I go to war.

So maybe when you stop trying to use zazen to fix yourself, paradoxically it 'fixes' you.

[Jundo]

Re: Shobogenzo Translations

Isn't it weird that often when you stop trying so hard to fix yourself, your demons often naturally diminish?

Like shadowboxing - when you stop fighting, your shadow stops fighting.

Of course, it's not always like this, but surprisingly often. Usually, I forget this and I go to war.

So maybe when you stop trying to use zazen to fix yourself, paradoxically it 'fixes' you.

That's right.

But it's not mere "stoicism" as we once had a chat about. Saying so just misses the point.

Because, when we really really really stop needing to look for where we are and who we are and where life is and where it needs to go ... ipso facto Found.

Like your fingertip, in search of your fingertip, pointing to where it thinks your fingertip is, and where your fingertip thinks it should best be instead to be more fingertippy:

Where is the fingertip to find the fingertip, how is the fingertip to point to the finger's point? 8)

Or, as old Dogen might say ... how is the moon to point at the fingertip?

Gassho, J

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Shobogenzo Translations

I agree Chet,
Since we conjure up our own demons, we're really fighting ourselves, aren't we? How could we hope to win over ourselves? It's impossible. When we escalate the war, we reinforce the demon side too, unconsciously. By opening the hand of thought in Shikantaza, I guess we are slowing down or stopping the conjuring up of more demons to fight. In time, maybe one learns to recognize the demons for what they are and become aware of their presence, which makes them lose their power over you, just like thoughts can no longer pass your guard and 'kidnap' you as easily in Zazen as they do in our ordinary life. When we wake up from our nightmarish dreaming, maybe the necessary conditions for the demons to appear no longer exist.

Also, when we let life manifest life, the universal self manifest universal self, I imagine there is some sort of purification of the mind, a sort of natural healing process or returning to wholeness, a restoration of original mind, when the defiling of our mind stops. With time and practice, the evil 'seeds', the original cause for the demons to appear, may lose some of their power in our life, even when we are not sitting Zazen.

This is by no means a truth claim, just my way of looking at it, and it may be very, very delusional, as always. :wink:

Gassho,
Pontus

[disastermouse]

Re: Shobogenzo Translations

I agree Chet,
Since we conjure up our own demons, we're really fighting ourselves, aren't we? How could we hope to win over ourselves? It's impossible. When we escalate the war, we reinforce the demon side too, unconsciously. By opening the hand of thought in Shikantaza, I guess we are slowing down or stopping the conjuring up of more demons to fight. In time, maybe one learns to recognize the demons for what they are and become aware of their presence, which makes them lose their power over you, just like thoughts can no longer pass your guard and 'kidnap' you as easily in Zazen as they do in our ordinary life. When we wake up from our nightmarish dreaming, maybe the necessary conditions for the demons to appear no longer exist.

Also, when we let life manifest life, the universal self manifest universal self, I imagine there is some sort of purification of the mind, a sort of natural healing process or returning to wholeness, a restoration of original mind, when the defiling of our mind stops. With time and practice, the evil 'seeds', the original cause for the demons to appear, may lose some of their power in our life, even when we are not sitting Zazen.

This is by no means a truth claim, just my way of looking at it, and it may be very, very delusional, as always. :wink:

Gassho,
Pontus

Jundo,

*Gassho*

Pontus,

Usually it's that way - although I think some things actually need to be overcome by force of will - addictions and whatnot....although I could very well be wrong.

Chet

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Shobogenzo Translations

Usually it's that way - although I think some things actually need to be overcome by force of will - addictions and whatnot....

I'm not an expert, but in my own experience quitting swedish snus (equivalent to 50-75 cigarettes), it also has a lot to do with acceptance. And in many ways the psychological reaction is similar to that of the loss of a dear friend. During the first time you feel a great sense of loss and sorrow. You think about the object of your addiction every waking moment, then every hour, every day, every week, every month. Eventually years may pass without thinking of it, but the feeling of loss and sorrow will always remain, in a way. It is only when we fully accept our life without it that we are free. And that isn't easy.

/Pontus

[Dosho]

Re: Shobogenzo Translations

Isn't it weird that often when you stop trying so hard to fix yourself, your demons often naturally diminish?

Truer words have yet to be spoken.

[Rimon]

Re: Shobogenzo Translations

The shadowboxing metaphor is very apt one to describe what we do while practicing. Thank you so much Chet

Deep gassho

Rimon