behind the obvious

[Taigu]

Re: behind the obvious

Chet, that's not what I said. I was explaining why doing a kesa is an expression of our practice. i was also refering to the danger of staying on sunyata.

Take care and thank you for what you write.

gassho

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: behind the obvious

Chet, that's not what I said. I was explaining why doing a kesa is an expression of our practice. i was also refering to the danger of staying on sunyata.

Take care and thank you for what you write.

gassho

Taigu

What's not what you said?

I get that you you think I'm hung up on shunyata. You have a point.

I like your commentary on the story, but I also liked it before the commentary.

Bows as well.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: behind the obvious

Chet ,

You ask why make anything, I give you my answer. I am not trying to pick up a fight but doing my very best to put down to words very subtle teachings.

gassho


Taigu

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: behind the obvious

Thank you Hans and Taigu for the explanations. I think they complemented each other very well. Thanks for laying out the subtle teachings of the Middle way.
If I were enlightened, I would probably go get some fabric right away and start sewing!
In my ignorance, my lazy ego believes it can wait until another day, some time in the future, when it suits me better! :roll: ops: :wink:

Gassho,
Pontus

[disastermouse]

Re: behind the obvious

Chet ,

You ask why make anything, I give you my answer. I am not trying to pick up a fight but doing my very best to put down to words very subtle teachings.

gassho


Taigu

Re-reading your post, I think I have a better understanding of your intent. I can't find any flaw in it. And yet, the monk from the story did not immediately replace his shirt with even a kesa. Am I misunderstanding the story? Maybe the thief took the kesa too. It must be difficult to face the world naked (at least from the waist up).

I was confused about that story - I thought it was the Buddha who took the monk's shirt.

Chet

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: behind the obvious

I was confused about that story - I thought it was the Buddha who took the monk's shirt.

This is the version of the story that I have seen in a few places, it's from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones:

One evening a thief visited Ry?kan's hut at the base of the mountain only to discover there was nothing to steal. Ry?kan returned and caught him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty-handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away. Ry?kan sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, "I wish I could have given him this beautiful moon."

The story is probably just an interpretation of Ryokan Taigu's Haiku:

The thief
Left it behind-
The moon at the window.

In other words, I think we may interpret it in any way we want. Clothes, shirt, Kesa, blanket, rags. I haven't heard the interpretation with the Buddha as the thief! :shock: :lol:

The message is, if I have understood Taigu Sensei correctly, is that we should let Shikantaza be Skikantaza and not become the thief in Ryokan's poem by stealing some rags, not noticing the real treasure, the beautiful moon. In other words, not try to use Zazen, take something from it into our lives, expect some use or reward from it. Instead of defiling it, we should let it be the pure manifestation of reality in this present moment, enlightenment, true nature, universal self or whatever we want to call it. Please correct me if I've misunderstood completely (again)!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Taigu]

Re: behind the obvious

Thank you Chet, and yes Pontus I was refering to this very famous story. I should have mentioned it. I assumed everybody kind of knew it. Mea culpa.
As to your understanding of what I am pointing at, it seems you are spot on.

gassho

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: behind the obvious

I was confused about that story - I thought it was the Buddha who took the monk's shirt.

This is the version of the story that I have seen in a few places, it's from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones:

One evening a thief visited Ry?kan's hut at the base of the mountain only to discover there was nothing to steal. Ry?kan returned and caught him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty-handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away. Ry?kan sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, "I wish I could have given him this beautiful moon."

The story is probably just an interpretation of Ryokan Taigu's Haiku:

The thief
Left it behind-
The moon at the window.

In other words, I think we may interpret it in any way we want. Clothes, shirt, Kesa, blanket, rags. I haven't heard the interpretation with the Buddha as the thief! :shock: :lol:

The message is, if I have understood Taigu Sensei correctly, is that we should let Shikantaza be Skikantaza and not become the thief in Ryokan's poem by stealing some rags, not noticing the real treasure, the beautiful moon. In other words, not try to use Zazen, take something from it into our lives, expect some use or reward from it. Instead of defiling it, we should let it be the pure manifestation of reality in this present moment, enlightenment, true nature, universal self or whatever we want to call it. Please correct me if I've misunderstood completely (again)!

Gassho,
Pontus

First I thought the story was about the thief not seeing the real treasure. Then I thought it was about the imperturbable nature of the monk in the story (as an example worth aspiring to). Then I thought it was an illustration that the enlightenment of the Buddha was like being stripped naked under a full moon in the cold night; if you're not ready, you'll think something important was taken from you. Instead of being grateful, you'll curse when you could just as well be thankful.

Right now, I'm convinced that the third interpretation is correct - but I also know this: If I was the monk and the thief took my shirt, I wouldn't be able to see the situation clearly. Like a fish on a hook, I would likely try to chase down the thief thinking that something very important had been taken from me. This means that even if I can see the way, surely I haven't finished walking it yet.

I'd never thought of it as Taigu interpreted it because it never occurred to the monk to stop the thief, nor that the theft occurred because of carelessness.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: behind the obvious

I'd never thought of it as Taigu interpreted it because it never occurred to the monk to stop the thief, nor that the theft occurred because of carelessness.

Thanks Chet for sharing your interpretation! I'm glad you have found one that speaks so strongly to you!
Maybe the thief could be the teacher helping his student to let go by stripping him naked..? (no, i'm not talking about disrobed Zen priests here! :twisted: )


Or maybe Ryokan was just a very loving, kind and compassionate man, never judging, wanting to give to this poor visitor without expecting anything in return, knowing they are not two, vowing to save all sentient beings before himself.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: behind the obvious

The thief
In the moonlight left behind
Enlightenment

(Sorry, I'll stop now! )

[Dokan]

Re: behind the obvious

Thank you for this Taigu...I had never saw the parallel to ego & shikantaza before. I had always interpreted Ryokan's story from being caught up in temporal/material things that we miss our opportunity to see the limitless right in front of eyes.

Also great discussion from the sangha, I seem to always learn as much from the discussion and commentary as I do from the inital post!

Gassho,

Shawn

[Risho]

Re: behind the obvious

Thanks Chet, I never thought about it from so many perspectives.

I always thought of it from the absolute perspective, as in you don't really own anything.

Also about being caught by the hook, I always get caught ... every day. Just yesterday, my wife was having a conversation with someone on the phone while I was doing Shikantaza, and I took my wife's "side" and I saw red... And I felt anger. That's my habitual response when I don't like something... anger!!!!

Going back to this story, I bet this old monk felt that way too; maybe, he's only painted so perfectly in a story to make a point about practice.


Gassho,

Risho

[Rich]

Re: behind the obvious

Pontus,

You can make a kesa out of these rags and blankets...That's what we do...

gassho

Taigu

This is gonna sound like a kid's question, but why make anything?

Chet

Did you mean making something as in doing or making something with your mind?

[disastermouse]

Re: behind the obvious

Pontus,

You can make a kesa out of these rags and blankets...That's what we do...

gassho

Taigu

This is gonna sound like a kid's question, but why make anything?

Chet

Did you mean making something as in doing or making something with your mind?

I meant that refuge in ritual forms, thinking they are more directly an expression of Buddha or dharma than mundane action or non-action - well, that could be the cancer that's killing /z/.

Avoidance of ritual probably ain't too healthy either though, I guess.

As always, JMHO, YMMV, no disrespect intended.

Chet

[Heisoku]

Re: behind the obvious

What is Linus without his blanket?
If the blanket isn't Linus what is?
When we let go of the blanket what is left?
Just the moon?


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