eyes

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi
I guess it's not about our preferences, it's about giving our self over to the practice ... eyes and all.

Just my understanding.
Gassho
Myozan

[Taigu]

Yes, Myozan,

Not focusing is not a matter of preference or choice, closed eyes is not an option but here, we have on the forum, some people who think they know what is best.

NOW once and for good, as we sit, we don't close nour eyes or focus on any particular point. Doing so, dear bunch of relunctant students, you cultivate in a dynamic way the very first lines of the Shin Jin Mei ( dig it yourself, if you have any interest in this path!!!) , you open your gaze as Kannon and Jizo are opening their arms and mind to all ( Kannon and Jizo are nobody but yourself), and, your eye balls are doing the very end of the heart sutra is proclaiming and your opinions about practice are of no importance at all. I know, this is not cool, this is not fair and looking very mean, but the general impression in this forum is that the teachers and elders, namely the priests, are busy repeating the same directions to guys only interested in their own opinions.

If you had ears to listen to what I am really saying, you would find that this is the kindest answer ever!

Gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Taigu, with his mean Bodhidharma glare ...



Bodhidharma kept his eyes open too, so much the legend goes that his eyelids fell off (or he cut them off!!)!



However, we keep our eyes open about 1/3 or 1/2. I did hear one Soto Teacher from Japan once say that he closed his eyes sometimes, but said he recommended that only after many many years of Practice and once in awhile. Even then, it is not a common opinion to close the eyes, nor to hold them fully open. The Middle Way. Here is a good example, the eyes of Kodo Sawaki Roshi ...



Gassho, J

[Taigu]

The gaze
Neither focused
Nor carried away,
Neither dwelling inside nor outside,
That gaze is SHOBOGENZO
Treasury of the true Dharma eye

[Taigu]

Thank you for this living shobogenzo sitting in the rags and flesh of Kodo.

Gassho


Taigu

[Heisoku]

_/\_

[Kyonin]

Eyes open

Mind opens

Light washes

Thoughts adrift

Immensity of emptiness

[Jundo]

Yeah!

[Myoku]

Thank you for this reminder,
I've been sitting with eyes wide open too often recently,
and yes, I've been tense.

You write: 'I do as I feel lead' , this is not our practice. We do follow a precise form.

Also this is something I was a bit loose. Thank you!

Gassho
Myoku

[Shonin]

I usually sit with my eyes half closed. Open too wide and I get easily distracted. Closed my mind wonders off on it's own. As others have mentioned, i do sometimes feel the eyelids get heavier and it's a struggle to keep them open.

I don't really have a blank anything to loosely gaze upon. My eyes usually lok down. I percieve my surroundings without getting wrapped up in them. But I do get distracted at times. The more I get used to sittin on the zafu again, the less the individual things tend to distract me.

_/\_ Dave

[Omoi Otoshi]

To me, Zazen is a dynamic process. Just as I let a long breath be long and a short breath be short without trying to control my breathing, my eyes are sometimes more open and sometimes more closed. If I try too hard to follow perfect form, then there is checking, worry, self-consciousness, imprisonment. If attention is drawn to the fact that I'm sitting with wide open or closed eyes, I return to half closed, then let go of caring about what my eyes are doing again. Just as with thoughts, I don't try to keep a close watch on them. I leave them to their own natural functioning. If a certain spot on the wall comes into awareness, to my attention, my eyes will focus on it. I don't think there's any reason to fight it, just return to Zazen, time after time again.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Jundo]

To me, Zazen is a dynamic process. Just as I let a long breath be long and a short breath be short without trying to control my breathing, my eyes are sometimes more open and sometimes more closed. If I try too hard to follow perfect form, then there is checking, worry, self-consciousness, imprisonment. If attention is drawn to the fact that I'm sitting with wide open or closed eyes, I return to half closed, then let go of caring about what my eyes are doing again. Just as with thoughts, I don't try to keep a close watch on them. I leave them to their own natural functioning. If a certain spot on the wall comes into awareness, to my attention, my eyes will focus on it. I don't think there's any reason to fight it, just return to Zazen, time after time again.

Gassho,
Pontus

I feel that is a more accurate description of what is actually what's going on when we say "eyes 1/3 open". Thank you Pontus for the clarification.

Likewise, we sit in the Lotus or one of the other basic postures (such as Burmese and Seiza), and that is the base and standard we maintain ... but the posture also somewhat changes and flows during a sitting, and we just flow with the changes. More on that in this book and Taigu's wonderful talks in the Beginner's series ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION

If the body is "right and balanced" such that it drops from mind and we don't have to pay it (to use an Americanism) "no never mind", then such is right sitting.

However, don't close the eyes, and don't move too far off from the basic postures, even as we let things flow.

Gassho, J

[Nengyo]

I'm late to this party, but I'll jump in anyways. I started meditating eyes closed. I switched to eyes open after reading that closing your eyes lets your mind's movie projector run wild (which was certainly true in my case) Now, I just keep them open. For a while I tried to keep them open 1/3rd or 2/3rds of the way, but I'm bad at fractions and like my sittings to be math free. So now I just sit with my eyes however they want to be. Usually this is wide open in the morning, very close to shut at night, and everywhere in between during the day. I stare at a blank wall for the most part so focus hasn't been much of a problem. I guess if I don't get enlightened soon, I can always try the cutting off the eyelids trick and see if that helps! hahaha (I love stories like that, not because they are true, but because they remind you that you can always do just a little bit more)

[Amelia]

After having let my eyes do whatever they want for a time, I wouldn't recommend it. The quality of my shikantaza is not the same with eyes closed.

[empty_fullness]

I have nothing pertinent to add to this discussion.

However, I was struck by how unnerving the topic of posture and eyes can be for a lot of us. Western minds seem to worry and get hung up on the slightest things. Our minds run wild with the tiniest bit of fuel feeding our anxieties. This has lead my mind to run away from sitting.

We can work ourselves up so easily. No wonder big-pharma makes so much in profits /cue political diatribeLOL

Letting go of this worry though has lead me to embrace it as learning experience.

Cheri Huber's and Steve Hagen's books helped me a lot with this aspect of the monkey mind.

Now instead of worrying about my mudra, eyelids or posture. I just sit.