Meditation is pointless...

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  • disastermouse

    #61
    Re: Meditation is pointless...

    I wonder if the conversation might not be abetted by losing some of the more cliched terms like 'unfolding the Buddha nature', etc. Not because they're wrong, but because they've been repeated so many times that they start to lose their effectiveness - it's not the fault of the terms, if we could just come to them with a fresh mind it would be no problem. Maybe it's just me.

    That's why Jundo's pudding metaphor, as cheesy as it may be perceived, at least makes you approach the things he's talking about without automatically thinking you understand because you've heard it so much. Or it did for me...

    So yeah - Zen is useless so why do you sit? I think zazen being actually useless is not the same as the story 'zen is useless'. My ex-girlfriend used to ask me why I meditated and I'd say 'there is no reason'. She'd say, 'if there is no reason, why do it?'. If I felt like being enigmatic, I'd say, 'Yes.'. If I felt more compassionate, I'd say, 'you'd have to do it to understand - I can't explain it very well.'.

    When I sit, zazen becomes useless just by 'engaging the clutch' and not being driven by thoughts. The gears aren't turning, and without anything to push against, the engine drops to a low idle - very occasionally it sputters to a timeless stop before percolating again. Often the gears get engaged in trying to describe what just happened before the clutch is re-engaged.

    'Zazen is useless' as an idea is a useless idea that can keep you from sitting zazen or it can be an admonition to stop chasing some peak experience like a dog chasing a car.

    'Zazen is useless' in actuality is just zazen - if it moves through your mind without getting stuck anywhere.

    Lots of things get stuck in my mind, hitting landmines, causing a lot of heat and light and urgency. Maybe more for me than others. Zazen though, lets things be open so mental objects can pass through.

    IMHO.

    Comment

    • Myoku
      Member
      • Jul 2010
      • 1491

      #62
      Re: Meditation is pointless...

      Originally posted by disastermouse
      'Zazen is useless' as an idea is a useless idea that can keep you from sitting zazen or it can be an admonition to stop chasing some peak experience like a dog chasing a car.

      'Zazen is useless' in actuality is just zazen - if it moves through your mind without getting stuck anywhere
      Thanks, really gave "zazen is useless" a different flavour for me,
      _()_
      Peter

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      • Omoi Otoshi
        Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 801

        #63
        Re: Meditation is pointless...

        I loved your post Chet!

        /Pontus
        In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
        you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
        now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
        the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

        Comment

        • Taigu
          Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
          • Aug 2008
          • 2710

          #64
          Re: Meditation is pointless...

          Chet, this is not a supermarket. Feel welcome to ignore my pointless posts and I will be happy not to have to worry about customer satisfaction ( such are the ways of spiritual materialism: teach me what I want to hear).

          A fresh mind indeed. Ten thousand times you may repeat and read the same sentence until...You see, Chet, just a suggestion: take the fukanzazengi, repeat it until your very bones are soaked with it. That's the Soto way, same old-new-always-old-but-so-very fresh zazen. Repeat it until you die and beyond.

          Pop art and excitement and all the thrills of concepts and empty chats and philosophy...Not my cup of tea.

          gassho

          Taigu

          Comment

          • Taigu
            Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
            • Aug 2008
            • 2710

            #65
            Re: Meditation is pointless...

            Meanwhile, carried away by your grudge or whatever you may call it, you miss the very core of what I try to say.

            Your post is interesting, and you play the same old songs of clouds passing...turning clouds into "mental objects"

            Good old song that, unlike you, when found in somebody else's mouth, I like very much.

            Comment

            • disastermouse

              #66
              Re: Meditation is pointless...

              Hey Taigu,

              I really didn't mean to set you off or even really criticize you - I think I latched on to your particular phrase just because it was the most recent similar one I'd heard. My apologies for any unintended offense. I probably should have been more careful seeing as I've said some very critical and reactive things to you frequently AND recently and I could have used more thought in the possible meaning that might have been read into it. For what it's worth, I did admit in the original post that the problem could very well be mine. I think that the reason I brought it up is because it actually did take two readings of your post for me to realize that I hadn't at first let the words sink in - because of their well-worn familiarity. I didn't intend to imply that their familiarity was the same as insincerity.

              I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my post and that you find my intentions or expression suspect. Much of this is my fault and to be expected considering my frequent antagonism and criticism of your teaching style.

              I'll strive to do better. Gassho.

              Chet

              Comment

              • Taigu
                Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
                • Aug 2008
                • 2710

                #67
                Re: Meditation is pointless...

                Thank you, Chet. I also tend to read things far too quickly (an old accademic habit).

                gassho

                Taigu

                Comment

                • Dokan
                  Friend of Treeleaf
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 1222

                  #68
                  Re: Meditation is pointless...

                  Originally posted by disastermouse

                  That's why Jundo's pudding metaphor, as cheesy as it may be perceived, at least makes you approach the things he's talking about without automatically thinking you understand because you've heard it so much. Or it did for me...
                  Agreed. Any chocolate references will grab my attention. I enjoyed his metaphor so much I shared it with my wife who also thought it was great...and gave us a good laugh.

                  Originally posted by disastermouse

                  When I sit, zazen becomes useless just by 'engaging the clutch' and not being driven by thoughts. The gears aren't turning, and without anything to push against, the engine drops to a low idle - very occasionally it sputters to a timeless stop before percolating again. Often the gears get engaged in trying to describe what just happened before the clutch is re-engaged.
                  Also really liked this analogy a lot! Can you explain a bit more on what you mean by the last line? Are you then saying that in the absence of thought (disengaged gears) zazen exists and any attempt at descriptions we lose the essence of what zazen is?

                  Gassho,
                  Shawn
                  We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
                  ~Anaïs Nin

                  Comment

                  • disastermouse

                    #69
                    Re: Meditation is pointless...

                    Originally posted by shards
                    Originally posted by disastermouse

                    That's why Jundo's pudding metaphor, as cheesy as it may be perceived, at least makes you approach the things he's talking about without automatically thinking you understand because you've heard it so much. Or it did for me...
                    Agreed. Any chocolate references will grab my attention. I enjoyed his metaphor so much I shared it with my wife who also thought it was great...and gave us a good laugh.

                    Originally posted by disastermouse

                    When I sit, zazen becomes useless just by 'engaging the clutch' and not being driven by thoughts. The gears aren't turning, and without anything to push against, the engine drops to a low idle - very occasionally it sputters to a timeless stop before percolating again. Often the gears get engaged in trying to describe what just happened before the clutch is re-engaged.
                    Also really liked this analogy a lot! Can you explain a bit more on what you mean by the last line? Are you then saying that in the absence of thought (disengaged gears) zazen exists and any attempt at descriptions we lose the essence of what zazen is?

                    Gassho,
                    Shawn
                    I don't think that a disengaged clutch is absence of thought, just absence of being 'pushed' by it. When the clutch is pressed, you can still rev the engine pretty loud - it's just that the whole apparatus of an identity isn't activated by it, or it's minimally activated.

                    And then sometimes, very rarely for my ADHD mind, the noise itself putters out and everything just seems 'just thus' - sensation is not producing any commentary at all. This lack of commentary is usually so startling that some aspect of comsciousness notices it and then begins a very loud commentary and then often a sense of identity arises. Then in a bit, the clutch is re-engaged, the excitement dropped, and the mumbling, often incoherent commentary rambles in the background like a snapped string - it's only very minimally giving rise to identity if at all.

                    Often in my non-zazen thinking and life, the commentary is like a very tight string or like a sharp tool - and everything it touches rattles and creates noise and drags or creates a sense of 'me' along with it. What's most ironically funny is when this very noisy, sharp 'commentary dragging a me' actually thinks that it represents 'lack of engaged commentary'.

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                    • disastermouse

                      #70
                      Re: Meditation is pointless...

                      Also, Steve Hagen's books and talks are some of my favorite.

                      Comment

                      • murasaki
                        Member
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 473

                        #71
                        Re: Meditation is pointless...

                        I agree with Adam that Johnson's post was well-put. It dovetails with my experience in beginning with Zen. At first, I did it to "learn to mediate" and to "calm my mind", and when I expressed this, I was abruptly browbeaten by someone that was trying to get me to realize the pointlessness of it.

                        This upset me (sensitive person that I am) and kind of drove me away for a while. However, after some time, I understand that this is a normal point to go to -- how do we get to exploring some spiritual ideas, or any ideas, anyway? We are looking for some benefit.

                        What is important is, as Johnson says in his post, that you'll get to the pointless point of pointlessness no matter what idea you start from if you are open to it (i.e., you aren't a spiritual materialist to begin with). The point you carried in grows further and further away as you sit.

                        I would have liked to discover this on my own rather than having it thrown at me, but either way, it happened.

                        I listen to Norman Fischer's talks, and in one of them, he mentions that people come to Zen invariably looking for some kind of benefit like that...nirvana, relaxation, calm, clarity...and while he knows we won't find that, he affirms that it doesn't matter why we come looking, it just matters that we come, and end up sitting. The pointlessness will be (not-)there when we get around to that non-place.

                        Gassho
                        Julia
                        "The Girl Dragon Demon", the random Buddhist name generator calls me....you have been warned.

                        Feed your good wolf.

                        Comment

                        • Jinho

                          #72
                          Re: Meditation is pointless...

                          Originally posted by murasaki

                          I listen to Norman Fischer's talks, and in one of them, he mentions that people come to Zen invariably looking for some kind of benefit like that...nirvana, relaxation, calm, clarity...and while he knows we won't find that....
                          Gassho
                          Julia
                          Um, many people have found nirvana, relaxation, calm and/or clarity as a result of doing zazen. All the people I have ever talked to in fact.

                          rowan/Jinho

                          (Lady M - love the new picture but the old one was great too!)

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40679

                            #73
                            Re: Meditation is pointless...

                            Originally posted by Jinho
                            Originally posted by murasaki

                            I listen to Norman Fischer's talks, and in one of them, he mentions that people come to Zen invariably looking for some kind of benefit like that...nirvana, relaxation, calm, clarity...and while he knows we won't find that....
                            Gassho
                            Julia
                            Um, many people have found nirvana, relaxation, calm and/or clarity as a result of doing zazen. All the people I have ever talked to in fact.

                            rowan/Jinho

                            (Lady M - love the new picture but the old one was great too!)
                            Sometimes the best things are found by leaving the hunt aside and searching over distant hills, realizing what's here all along.

                            I like the Chinese Finger Trap example ...

                            viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1451

                            this one too ...

                            viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2666

                            Gassho, J
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                            Comment

                            • Kaishin
                              Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 2322

                              #74
                              Re: Meditation is pointless...

                              The dishes are dirty. Wash them!
                              Thanks,
                              Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
                              Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

                              Comment

                              • Risho
                                Member
                                • May 2010
                                • 3178

                                #75
                                Re: Meditation is pointless...

                                I really love that post on "How to Attain Enlightenment". Thank you Jundo-sensei!

                                It really hits the Middle Path non-nail on its non-head. hahahah

                                I saved that to a text file so I can read it regularly.

                                Gassho,

                                Risho
                                Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

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