Meditation is pointless...

[anista]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Anyway, just be the "chocolate pudding of enlightenment" ... mix it up, stir it in a bowl, enjoy the Chocolatey Richness!

Really, I have no idea what that means. :?

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

On a personal level, perhaps, but not when we're talking about buddhist philosophy. Few concepts are so off as the buddhadhatu.

But buddhadhatu is also a concept right? Like Suzuki Roshi says, there's a positive and a negative side to everything and we can't speak about both at once. He also says that the more we get to know the way, to harder is is to talk about it. This is where western philosophy fails. Buddha gave us a way to see for ourselves. If and when you experience the buddhadhatu in the marrow of your marrow, perhaps it won't be off at all? When we get hung up on a philosophical question like this, maybe we attach ourselves to it, cling to it? Maybe it's best to just practice, try to keep that beginner's mind and view the intellectualizations not as the answer, but as a brain exercise (and probably an exercise in futility)?

Gassho,
Pontus

PS. I've stopped trying to understand some of Jundo's writings intellectually... :wink: I just read through what he writes three to ten times and try to get the general feeling of what he is expressing! :lol: DS.

[anista]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

On a personal level, perhaps, but not when we're talking about buddhist philosophy. Few concepts are so off as the buddhadhatu.

But buddhadhatu is also a concept right? Like Suzuki Roshi says, there's a positive and a negative side to everything and we can't speak about both at once. He also says that the more we get to know the way, to harder is is to talk about it. This is where western philosophy fails. Buddha gave us a way to see for ourselves. If and when you experience the buddhadhatu in the marrow of your marrow, perhaps it won't be off at all? When we get hung up on a philosophical question like this, maybe we attach ourselves to it, cling to it? Maybe it's best to just practice, try to keep that beginner's mind and view the intellectualizations not as the answer, but as a brain exercise (and probably an exercise in futility)?

Gassho,
Pontus

PS. I've stopped trying to understand some of Jundo's writings intellectually... :wink: I just read through what he writes three to ten times and try to get the general feeling of what he is expressing! :lol: DS.

Sure, and I get that, but what we shouldn't forget is that chan and zen always have been very philosophically inclined, writing ominous volumes about dogma, practice, philosophy, etc. This intellectual side is often dismissed, I feel, in many samghas today, and instead, cryptic answers or other methods to point directly to the truth is employed. Nothing wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with having discussions on intellectual matters - it helps, if nothing else, to provide the samgha with the theoretical foundation for the practice. It's a chance to clear up difficult subjects, because there is something to be cleared up, that is our understanding of the subjects. Not everyone is interested in this, and that is fine.

Furthermore, I just want to say that just because we discuss intellectual matters, that doesn't mean that we're not practicing, that we're not sitting zazen. It's two sides of the same coin, no?

Anyway, I agree with you that it's best to just practice, but in my opinion, practice is way more than doing zazen, or rather, doing zazen could be more than just sitting still on the floor. You know?

Philip

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Furthermore, I just want to say that just because we discuss intellectual matters, that doesn't mean that we're not practicing, that we're not sitting zazen. It's two sides of the same coin, no?

Anyway, I agree with you that it's best to just practice, but in my opinion, practice is way more than doing zazen, or rather, doing zazen could be more than just sitting still on the floor. You know?

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. There's a yin and a yang to practice I believe. There's both study and Zazen. I personally need to think things through, get to the bottom of things intellectually, before I can see that there's no truth or answer to be found by thinking longer and harder. That is when I need to just sit. But I don't think I could get to that point without thinking things through, if you know what I mean?

And I also believe we must have a foundation in the buddhist teachings. But the sutras can (should?) probably be read with two (or more?) different minds, reading with ones heart or with ones head.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Pontus

[Jundo]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Sure, and I get that, but what we shouldn't forget is that chan and zen always have been very philosophically inclined, writing ominous volumes about dogma, practice, philosophy, etc. This intellectual side is often dismissed, I feel, in many samghas today, and instead, cryptic answers or other methods to point directly to the truth is employed. Nothing wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with having discussions on intellectual matters - it helps, if nothing else, to provide the samgha with the theoretical foundation for the practice.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree! I was sure I was giving a clear philosophical answer! Okay then, let me spell it out.

We might think that "Buddha Nature" ( buddhadhatu ) is like a box of powdered "chocolate pudding mix". In the mix already there is all the chocolate, all the flavor of Buddha already ... as well as all the potential to become a Buddha (chocolate pudding) too. However, it is also not yet ready, not yet complete! In that way, we might say the mix is all the chocolate, already Buddha, already complete ... but nonetheless needs to be cooked up into pudding (= Buddha) until which it is not ready and complete.



And this is true!

We have to make the pudding (= practice) to realize its full flavor. We cannot taste the pudding without first making the pudding ( = practice). The mix by itself is not sufficient without practice, following the recipe. What's more, if we do it badly (practice poorly, not enough, out of balance) ... too much heat, not enough heat, not enough stirring, too much or too little milk (milk = Precepts) ... the pudding will not turn out good, be flat or get burned! Yuck!

But, if we do it well, PUDDING! We can dip in a spoon ... and taste the pudding! We can taste Buddhaness! Yummy!




But, then again, the above image of "Buddha nature" is not quite complete.

Because, once we taste the pudding we realize that ... the whole process, the pans and spoons and stove and whole kitchen and every step of the way, was pudding pudding-ing pudding ... Buddha Buddha-ing Buddha ... the chocolate is Buddha pudding, the milk and heat too, the cooking is the Buddha's cooking Buddha and ... well, the cook is made of chocolate through and through. A chocolate pudding man cooking chocolate pudding!



In fact, it is quite like the pudding cooking (cooking = pudding-ing) the pudding, then the pudding tasting (tasting = pudding-ing) the pudding. Pudding pudding-ing pudding, then pudding puddhing-ing pudding. PUDDHA PUDDHA-ING PUDDHA! In this way, we realize that the pudding was already made, already ready all along ... everything though and through pudding ... even without our cooking it (but we had to cook to realize that fact). The pudding was everywhere, always and DELICIOUS! ... and be careful in stirring the pot!

Yummy in the beginning, middle and end. So, the best thing to do is just cook (practice) dilligently to make the pudding ... then stop and taste the pudding as its bubbling, lick the spoon, enjoy!

Leave any part of the above recipe out and the pudding is flat.

Something like that. Hard to make it any philosophically clearer. 8)

And if any of the above recipe is too complicated for you ... no matter. Just sit, savor the chocolate!

My point is: Why waste too much time having a philosophical debate about pudding and the nature of pudding mix? A chicken and egg debate on "what came first, the pudding or the mix?" :roll: Oh sure, a little debate and comparing notes on the best way to fool with the recipe or the best temperature is fine ...

but in the end ... just sit down and TASTE THE CHOCOLATE!

One does not overly philosophize about chocolate, its chemical make-up, or the favorite color of the President of the Jello Pudding Company. One just sits down and TASTES THE CHOCOLATE!

Gassho, J



PS - "alaya-vijnana" is like the cupboard where all the ingredients are kept. :twisted:

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Can it be explained any clearer than that?

[anista]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree! I was sure I was giving a clear philosophical answer! Okay then, let me spell it out.

First of all, great post! It really was, and it actually helped me visualize buddhadhatu. In a yummy way.

Second of all, I apologize, but my response wasn't meant for you, Jundo (or, well, all my posts are meant for anyone who wants them) but was meant as a response to what I'm often seeing here, that is: somebody starts talking about intellectual stuff, and then, sooner or later, someone comes in and says "Hey guys, stop talking about this, go practice instead". Like intellectual debates aren't supposed to exist in a zen samgha, or that they are stealing time from sitting practice. Maybe for some folks, they are. In my case, no, not at all. There is a time and place for everything. Well, anyway, it gets tiresome after a while, and lately I've been starting to react badly when I'm constantly seeing this attitude (not just here though, in any zen buddhist forum). But that is, of course, my own problem. I should strive to correct this.

Also, as I said, I have no problem with cryptical answers, or short answers, or poetic answers for that matter. But I also have no problem with intellectual answers. Each to his own, right?

Philip

[Jundo]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Hi Anista,

Understood. I am a lawyer by training (long ago), with a library of about 500 books on Buddhism, Buddhist philosophy, Buddhist history ... and I consider myself a pretty philosophical fellow. I also -do not- appreciate the folks who just yell "MU" or "GO SIT" in the face of any question.

YES, our way is both SITTING/PRACTICE and AN UNDERSTANDING OF BUDDHIST TEACHINGS/PHILOSOPHY/HISTORY to mold and guide the SITTING/PRACTICE. I have spoken about that MANY TIMES (you can see some of my library in this one) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with ... right.html

HOWEVER. we in the Zen corner of Buddhism tend to have a QUICK THRESHOLD and SHORT FUSE for what constitutes "angels on the head of a pin" "chicken and egg" debates and discussions. Such discussions can sometimes aid practice, but often they detract from our way ... BECAUSE WE ARE SO MUCH ABOUT LETTING QUESTIONS BE, LETTING QUESTIONS FADE AWAY AND BECOME THUS "NON-QUESTIONS" ... DROPPING "THE CHICKEN" AND DROPPING "THE EGG".

I do not mean "ignorance", FAR FROM IT! But dropping some questions is often an answer! For example, if you saw two fellows debating the question "Which fly higher and with more grace? green flying elephants or pink flying elephants" ... you might tell them to drop the flying elephants! (maybe drop the bottle of scotch too! 8) )

I wrote the following ...

[Someone wrote me to ask] "Does Satori provide the answer to the ‘big questions’?"

Our Practice provides some very specific (and wonderful) answers to some 'big questions'. For example, Buddhism provides very clear guidance for and understanding of the origins of human suffering in this life. The "Four Noble Truths". for example, provide a formula that effectively describes the sickness and provides the medicine for its treatment or cure.

Our Practice provides some very wonderful answers to other 'big questions' by instructing us to drop the questions as meaningless. Some questions are as pointless as our asking 'how many angels can gather on the head of a pin' or 'what color are the rabbits that live on the moon'. An example of such a question may be "where do we 'go' when we die, and where did we 'come from' before we were born" (I will talk about that in another posting later this week).

Hand in hand with the above, many questions we regularly ask may just be phrased poorly, biased by our narrow, anthropocentric human understanding. An example of that may be "why do 'bad things' happen in the world". When we change the way the question is asked, answers begin to present themselves (I will talk about that too in the coming days). Hitting the "reset button' on so many of our misguided questions are what most of those old Koans are on about, by the way.

And sometimes, Buddhism provides no answer to some 'big questions' (although that may be a kind of 'answer' too!). One such question may be whether or not there is actually a 'God' in the Judeo-Christian sense (and whether, for example, Jesus was 'His Son'). To such questions, our Zen Practice allows us to believe what we wish, or to take no stand at all. I often say:

Is there a "God named 'Jehovah'"? .......... If so, live human life, fetch wood and carry water.

Is there not some "God named 'Jehovah'"? .......... If not, live human life, fetch wood and carry water.

I will also examine that, and related matters, in future postings.

Oh, and I will also talk about what that word 'Satori' means in the coming days.

So, my response for today: Sometimes YES! Sometimes NO! Sometimes WHAT QUESTION?!?!

Gassho, Jundo

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So, when I find folks trying to "discover Buddha Nature" by discussing "what is Buddha Nature" ... I use the example I mentioned ...

It is much like debating and discussing "what is Chocolate?" One should not overly philosophize about chocolate, its chemical make-up, whether "chocolate is a "thing" or a "color" or a "taste" or a "mental state", whether chocolate exists everywhere in the dish or only on the tongue or in the eye which sees it, whether the chocolate comes before the cocoa bean or after the bean, or the shoe size of the President of the Chocolate Company.

One just sits down and TASTES THE CHOCOLATE! 8)

Something like that. We have a quick threshold for "angel on heads of pins."

Gassho, J

[Onshin]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Will you please stop with the chocolate metaphors? It causes unecessary suffering to those of us who are not allowed it. And NO! it not all good practice, chocolate pravation is horrible.

Many thanks

Gassho

Joe

[Saijun]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Will you please stop with the chocolate metaphors?

Back to banana ketchup it is!

Metta,

Saijun

[Risho]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

ugh no Chocolate?


Now another way of understanding the pudding metaphor could lead some to believe that ours is a practice of cannibalism; if you all were made of pudding, I'm sorry but I think my hunger would take over. hahahaahah :mrgreen:

Someone said this recently; I completely forget (I'm sorry :roll: ). But that's the rub with our practice. We could just sit back and say all is pudding, but we have to realize it and to realize it we have to do the work and the search.

[Jundo]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

By the way, if you guys would like to have a serious discussion of the nature of "Buddha Nature", please do and I do not mean to discourage you. Just start a new thread and go ahead. It is actually an interesting topic, although also a bit "eye of the beholder".

Same for anyone who wants to debate "green flying elephants"! :wink:

I cannot guaranty that either discussion will "take off", but let's see,

Gassho, J

[Jinho]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

[Someone wrote me to ask] "Does Satori provide the answer to the ‘big questions’?"

Gassho, J

I think perhaps this question indicates a misunderstanding of the experience of satori. Satori is an intense experiential experience of understanding some aspect of that great understanding we call enlightenment. Satori IS understanding. Satori doesn't "provide" anything, in perhaps the same way that music doesn't provide sound, music IS sound (of what ever sort of sound(s) the particular music is). People seem to think satori is some exotic experience, actually if you can think of some moment when some aspect of your life or reality or whatever was unclear and suddenly you Got It! Suddenly everything about a particular situation was suddenly absolutely clear and vivid and In Your Face (in a wonderful way)(and in your whole being). This is similar to satori only a satori is a much more intense version of this. Perhaps this is useful. For some zennies (or anyone) this happens at some random moment. For some zennies, the experience of understanding is like the dew of many years gently soaking into ones being. And for many people it is both sudden and gradual.

For everyone, sudden or gradual, understanding comes over and over throughout one's life. This reflects the second vow "Delusions are inexhaustible - I vow to end them". And in my experience, if I don't understand, reality will keep slamming into my face until I do understand, stop being in denial or whatever.

I hope this was useful to someone
gassho,
rowan

[Jundo]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

For some zennies (or anyone) this happens at some random moment. For some zennies, the experience of understanding is like the dew of many years gently soaking into ones being. And for many people it is both sudden and gradual.

For everyone, sudden or gradual, understanding comes over and over throughout one's life. This reflects the second vow "Delusions are inexhaustible - I vow to end them". And in my experience, if I don't understand, reality will keep slamming into my face until I do understand, stop being in denial or whatever.

I hope this was useful to someone
gassho,
rowan

Thank you, Rowan. This above said it very nicely. Like diving into the sea, or walking through a mist as one's sleeves become damp.

Gassho, J

[Taigu]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Very very fine answer, Jinho. Very fine look on the processs from a Rinzai viewpoint. Perfectly right.
Now, in Dogen teachings, the ultimate cannot be known for when it is, it is not outside of itself. You can only see something if you separate yourself from it, the experience of non-duality leaves no trace whatsoever. That's why a statement like : I have satori is a very crooked statement. One of my first teachers used to say: naturally, automatically, spontaneously... in this, no feed back, just action and awakening as one. People endlessly mentionning their maha kensho ( you certainly know who I am talking about...) are doing a good job bragging about a very limited and crooked experience. Another way to put it is that there is no enlightenment outside activity. Enlightened activity is the blossoming-blooming-unfolding of as-it-isness and in it, no room for navel gazing and once crossed no anniversary celebrations either.
The Dharma is the invitation for everybody to naturally unfold their true nature. Quite ordinary and yet very very wonderful.
A last word: the day you don't mind anymore about being enlightened and stop chasing smokes and mirrors, the day you just taste water as water and wine as wine, is the day the gate of activity is wide open.


gassho

Taigu