Meditation is pointless...

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  • Stephanie

    #31
    Re: Meditation is pointless...

    Originally posted by Jundo
    Originally posted by Stephanie
    I think this is where the nontheistic aspect of Buddhism really comes in. Realizing pointlessness is realizing that there is no plan for you, no cosmic parent with a design for your life who holds you in his or her loving embrace. You're really alone out here, it really is your life, and it really is just this, and has been just this since the beginning of beginningless time. Let go of all your baggage and ideas, all your goals and fantasies of endless power and control, all your hopes for the happy ending in the script you've written for your life.

    "Coming empty handed, going empty handed, that is human." -Seung Sahn
    But this "pointlessness" is not, said the Buddha many times, a pointless, meaningless, nihilism.

    For something still embraces, one is not alone, the baggage is let go and ... there is a happy endingless ending.
    I am feeling and understanding that more these days... I realized a while back that whatever it is I am, and wherever it is that I and any of the rest of us came from, whatever we are is, was, and always has been embedded in the very fabric of the universe. I can't quite find words to express it, but I realized that the view of science and the feeling of spirituality are not necessarily opposed.

    To use a simile of a computer system, this possibility that we became was embedded in the code from the very beginning. We are not "random," in that our evolution proceeded in an orderly manner according to the parameters already in place. But it wasn't "designed," either, in the sense we imagine. There is no designer or master puppeteer pulling the strings. Everything that is, was already there from the very beginning, and no possibility or outcome is unconnected from the rest. Consciousness lies waiting in stardust.

    We walk together with our fellow humans, yet we ultimately walk alone. It is not a sad or despairing alone, we are not isolated from anyone or anything else, but there is a certain childish fantasy that nonetheless must be dropped somewhere along the way if we want to stop chasing our tails. There is no secret, hidden consciousness that applauds for us every time we do something well when no one is watching. But that's just it... when you break through the barrier of pointlessness, it does not matter, because experience itself opens up to you when you remove the lenses that cause you to see everything in terms of a goal or point. You don't need the applause, because what you did is "its own reward," for lack of a better term. Your feeling of accomplishment is the universe's feeling of accomplishment.

    Comment

    • JohnsonCM
      Member
      • Jan 2010
      • 549

      #32
      Re: Meditation is pointless...

      Perhaps zazen is pointless because when you begin, you have a point in mind. “I will sit to become enlightened.” You can switch out “enlightened” with whatever you want: “balanced”, “happy”, “sad”, “hungry”, “wise”, “itchy” etc.

      But you are always looking outward, trying to see that point coming closer, like when you pick out a tree or a rock and say, “I will walk to that point”. By looking for a “point” you create the separation between “you” and “the point”. Looking for a goal to reach.

      As you sit, you start to stop looking out and start looking in. You start to realize that looking in is looking out and looking up while looking around, all at the same time. The goal disappears, because you know you cannot “look” for it. The “point” broadens and becomes a sweeping stroke, which becomes a bird chirping, which becomes you. The separation melts away and is dropped, the self starts to realize the “self” and soon you wonder, “What was the point anyway?” “What was I looking for in the first place?”

      So now, there is no “point” and instead of trying to reach a point, you find you have become the point, and the point has become like trying to point at a specific point in a clear blue sky, or a certain point on a pure white piece of paper.

      Now you just try to live. Now you “just sit”. See my point?
      :mrgreen:
      Gassho,
      "Heitetsu"
      Christopher
      Sat today

      Comment

      • JohnsonCM
        Member
        • Jan 2010
        • 549

        #33
        Re: Meditation is pointless...

        Originally posted by Omoi Otoshi
        When you dance around with your disturbing thoughts, you don’t notice them at all. When a mosquito bites you during zazen, you notice it right away. But when you’re dancing and a flea bites your balls, you don’t notice it at all.

        I don't know that there's a dance that I could do where I wouldn't notice THAT! :shock: :shock: :shock:
        Gassho,
        "Heitetsu"
        Christopher
        Sat today

        Comment

        • Rich
          Member
          • Apr 2009
          • 2614

          #34
          Re: Meditation is pointless...

          Originally posted by Stephanie
          Your feeling of accomplishment is the universe's feeling of accomplishment.
          Yea, that's how I feel sometimes. But it's gone and I'm already on to my next little plan
          _/_
          Rich
          MUHYO
          無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

          https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

          Comment

          • Shogen
            Member
            • Dec 2008
            • 301

            #35
            Re: Meditation is pointless...

            Hi Adam
            Intrinsic enlightenment is with us at birth. What you do with it from there is entirely of your own making. Gassho Zak

            Comment

            • Omoi Otoshi
              Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 801

              #36
              Re: Meditation is pointless...

              Originally posted by JohnsonCM
              I don't know that there's a dance that I could do where I wouldn't notice THAT! :shock: :shock: :shock:
              The definition of absolute samadhi is when you don't notice the fleas biting your balls. :mrgreen:

              /Pontus
              In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
              you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
              now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
              the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

              Comment

              • Adam
                Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 127

                #37
                Re: Meditation is pointless...

                Originally posted by JohnsonCM
                Perhaps zazen is pointless because when you begin, you have a point in mind. “I will sit to become enlightened.” You can switch out “enlightened” with whatever you want: “balanced”, “happy”, “sad”, “hungry”, “wise”, “itchy” etc.

                But you are always looking outward, trying to see that point coming closer, like when you pick out a tree or a rock and say, “I will walk to that point”. By looking for a “point” you create the separation between “you” and “the point”. Looking for a goal to reach.

                As you sit, you start to stop looking out and start looking in. You start to realize that looking in is looking out and looking up while looking around, all at the same time. The goal disappears, because you know you cannot “look” for it. The “point” broadens and becomes a sweeping stroke, which becomes a bird chirping, which becomes you. The separation melts away and is dropped, the self starts to realize the “self” and soon you wonder, “What was the point anyway?” “What was I looking for in the first place?”

                So now, there is no “point” and instead of trying to reach a point, you find you have become the point, and the point has become like trying to point at a specific point in a clear blue sky, or a certain point on a pure white piece of paper.

                Now you just try to live. Now you “just sit”. See my point?
                :mrgreen:

                Thank you for this. I was trying to say the same thing, but you have said it much better.

                Gassho,

                Adam
                "Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment." - Lao Tzu

                Comment

                • Taigu
                  Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
                  • Aug 2008
                  • 2710

                  #38
                  Re: Meditation is pointless...

                  Excellent point JohnsonCM.

                  gassho


                  Taigu

                  Comment

                  • Shokai
                    Dharma Transmitted Priest
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 6396

                    #39
                    Re: Meditation is pointless...

                    I previously prepared an artfully verbose post consisting of quotes seen above and references probably best left unreferenced. My computer immediately agreed and crashed, losing all reference to the non-referenced. The gist of which was simple mindfulness; being aware of what you are thinking/doing when you are thinking and/or doing it.
                    Blessed are they who expect nothing for they shall not be disappointed
                    - anon.
                    To which I am compelled to add Taigu's
                    Excellent point Johnson
                    Rather pointless wouldn't you agree?
                    合掌,生開
                    gassho, Shokai

                    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

                    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

                    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

                    Comment

                    • JohnsonCM
                      Member
                      • Jan 2010
                      • 549

                      #40
                      Re: Meditation is pointless...

                      Originally posted by Shokai
                      To which I am compelled to add Taigu'sExcellent point Johnson

                      Rather pointless wouldn't you agree?

                      Of course, but then, that's the whole point. :wink:
                      Gassho,
                      "Heitetsu"
                      Christopher
                      Sat today

                      Comment

                      • anista
                        Member
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 262

                        #41
                        Re: Meditation is pointless...

                        Originally posted by Saijun

                        Hello Anista,

                        Perhaps Reality is Buddha-Nature? Always exactly what it is, unchanging and eternal at an absolute point of view, even while dynamic and impermanent at a relative. Maybe it would be more accurate to say, "All of us are extant in Buddha-Nature." Reality is reality, Buddha-Nature is Buddha-Nature (whatever that does turn out to mean). Could the whole issue be as simple as holding on to one's concept of what "Buddha Nature" or "Reality" is, or should be?

                        Just my thoughts.

                        Metta,

                        Saijun
                        Sorry Saijun, I completely missed your response.

                        Anyway, sure, buddha nature could be reality in the way you describe it. I just think that the concept of buddha nature is somehow strangely specific, seemingly permanent, and slightly ... off ... though. In a way. But the same could be said about for example the alaya-vijnana, I suppose, and other concepts used to describe reality. But really, I have no special insight in this matter, just random thoughts.

                        But I agree, holding on to one's concept of what buddha nature really is could really be the root of this issue.
                        The mind does not know itself; the mind does not see itself
                        The mind that fabricates perceptions is false; the mind without perceptions is nirv??a

                        Comment

                        • Saijun
                          Member
                          • Jul 2010
                          • 667

                          #42
                          Re: Meditation is pointless...

                          Originally posted by anista
                          Originally posted by Saijun

                          Hello Anista,

                          Perhaps Reality is Buddha-Nature? Always exactly what it is, unchanging and eternal at an absolute point of view, even while dynamic and impermanent at a relative. Maybe it would be more accurate to say, "All of us are extant in Buddha-Nature." Reality is reality, Buddha-Nature is Buddha-Nature (whatever that does turn out to mean). Could the whole issue be as simple as holding on to one's concept of what "Buddha Nature" or "Reality" is, or should be?

                          Just my thoughts.

                          Metta,

                          Saijun
                          Sorry Saijun, I completely missed your response.

                          Anyway, sure, buddha nature could be reality in the way you describe it. I just think that the concept of buddha nature is somehow strangely specific, seemingly permanent, and slightly ... off ... though. In a way. But the same could be said about for example the alaya-vijnana, I suppose, and other concepts used to describe reality. But really, I have no special insight in this matter, just random thoughts.

                          But I agree, holding on to one's concept of what buddha nature really is could really be the root of this issue.
                          Hello,

                          Every concept is slightly off. "Chocolate pudding" is enligtenment.

                          Metta,

                          Perry
                          To give up yourself without regret is the greatest charity. --RBB

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40679

                            #43
                            Re: Meditation is pointless...

                            Originally posted by anista

                            Sorry Saijun, I completely missed your response.

                            Anyway, sure, buddha nature could be reality in the way you describe it. I just think that the concept of buddha nature is somehow strangely specific, seemingly permanent, and slightly ... off ... though. In a way. But the same could be said about for example the alaya-vijnana, I suppose, and other concepts used to describe reality. But really, I have no special insight in this matter, just random thoughts.

                            But I agree, holding on to one's concept of what buddha nature really is could really be the root of this issue.
                            You both have "a good point"! Unless you missed the point, and Buddha Nature is not something fixed at one point, like pudding in a mold! :wink:

                            Anyway, just be the "chocolate pudding of enlightenment" ... mix it up, stir it in a bowl, enjoy the Chocolatey Richness!

                            THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING!



                            ... tasted on the pointless point of a tongue hanging in space!

                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                            Comment

                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 40679

                              #44
                              Re: Meditation is pointless...

                              Originally posted by chugai
                              a lot of them to do with suicide and homicide --- but as I experience them I realize they are just thoughts and don't mean a damn thing ...
                              Yes, please keep that realization!
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                              Comment

                              • anista
                                Member
                                • Dec 2009
                                • 262

                                #45
                                Re: Meditation is pointless...

                                Originally posted by Saijun
                                Hello,

                                Every concept is slightly off. "Chocolate pudding" is enligtenment.

                                Metta,

                                Perry
                                On a personal level, perhaps, but not when we're talking about buddhist philosophy. Few concepts are so off as the buddhadhatu. Even if I am missing the pointless point. Or the pointlessness of the pointless point, or something like that.

                                Philip
                                The mind does not know itself; the mind does not see itself
                                The mind that fabricates perceptions is false; the mind without perceptions is nirv??a

                                Comment

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