Meditation is pointless...

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Awakening is not a product we may get from the Zen shelf, it is not something we can hold or have, we are it. And when we are it, we are not aware of it. Awakening is not navel gazing. It is the natural activity of reality expressed fully in our sitting. Our sitting is pointless like trees, birds, mountains and stuff like that. when you give zazen a goal, you restrict its nature, you give it a flavour, pointless zazen is absolutely open, unconditionnally open, open on the open itself. We not having a strategy here, pretending it is pointless so we can get the goodies from it, it is truly endless, timeless and pointless. The journey is without goal because it never ends. Sawaki Kodo wanted people to realize that limiting boundless activity was ridiculous.

Thank you very much Taigu Sensei. Your words ring very true. Very clear and honest. As do those of Sawaki Roshi.
I agree we shouldn't pretend it's pointless so we can get the goodies. But it's very hard to accept consciously and subconsciously that there is nothing to attain, when we are so used to having goals and being driven in our everyday lives. As Sawaki says: "This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re truly practicing what’s good for nothing."

Gassho,
Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

But it is probably more expedient to turn one's desire for enlightenment into a question.

Yes, and keep a beginner's mind.

Thank you,
Pontus

[Taigu]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Pontus, it is Kodo Sawaki you are refering to. But I am sure he doesn't mind if you change his name a bit...

gassho


Taigu

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Oops! ops: ops: ops:
I had a teacher named Kadowaki once. So I mixed that and Sawaki a little. I blame the sleep deprivation... Making a complete fool out of oneself is very good for your ego!

I'll edit to avoid confusion.

Gassho,
/Pontus

[Jinyu]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

As Sawaki says: "This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re truly practicing what’s good for nothing."

Until this conviction/experience of "good for nothing" sinks into our flesh and bones" we use to make discriminations to express our relation to this practice. A lot of questions, thoughts, ideas or idealization may appear in our little heads about Zen, Zazen, good, bad... But practicing with the sense of "I don't know" can help to relax sufficiently our mind (better to drop bodymind... but only on good days :lol: ) and maybe just accept this reality of "good for nothing".

Is the "good for nothing" that Kodo Sawaki express really different from the "I don't know"?
Not one, not two practices... maybe beyond practices.

In the end the question is, for me (who is, like a lot of us, easily lost in intellectual ideas about practice), is it important to know if we can get something or not from Zazen?

No need to answer, we all have one... but looking at this question about our practice with the "specter", the view, the sense of "I don't know" can help to just ... dropping the answers and the questions... and what is left?

Sorry, it is a bit complicated for me to express myself with nuances in English.
Hope it isn't out of subject.

gassho,
Jinyu

[anista]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Wanting enlightenment is a very good thing. "attaining enlightenment" is merely experience a great understanding in one's whole being.

I want to know what is this thing called enlightenment and that QUESTION has led me to many significant experiences.

It is important when sitting to let that desire to find out what enlightenmetn is, to let that drop away from the forefront of one's consciousness because that desire is an in-the-future thing and nothing happens in the future, there is only this moment. And so enlightenment, like everything else, can only happen in This Moment. But it is probably more expedient to turn one's desire for enlightenment into a question.

And I want to encourage people not to settle for feeling peaceful, being mindful. Or at least perhaps to consider not settling for those things. Because the great promise of zen buddhism is that experiencing enlightenment is not something that just happened to some prince who lived 2500 years ago, it is available to everyone.

thank you for yoru time,
gassho
rowan jinho
who very definitely doesn't sit zazen just to sit on her butt

Very good post rowan/jinho. I agree completely.

[anista]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Anista, when you say : there is plenty to reach", who is reaching what?

Me who is typing here, the sense of self who is illusory, who is clinging to itself, reaches everything that can be reached. Awakening, the end of a sutra, more groceries, a case in point. No? I get a feeling that this is a wrong answer (even if we're passed right and wrong)!

Awakening is not a product we may get from the Zen shelf, it is not something we can hold or have, we are it. And when we are it, we are not aware of it. Awakening is not navel gazing. It is the natural activity of reality expressed fully in our sitting. Our sitting is pointless like trees, birds, mountains and stuff like that. when you give zazen a goal, you restrict its nature, you give it a flavour, pointless zazen is absolutely open, unconditionnally open, open on the open itself. We not having a strategy here, pretending it is pointless so we can get the goodies from it, it is truly endless, timeless and pointless. The journey is without goal because it never ends. Sawaki Kodo wanted people to realize that limiting boundless activity was ridiculous.

OK, now I am confused. You say that pointless zazen is unconditionally open, but then isn't that a point to zazen? The openness? We can argue about the semantic nature of the word "point", but since zazen is unconditionally open, without a strategy, that could be said to be the point. The point of having no point.

[Taigu]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Indeed, the point of having no point.

gassho

Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Indeed, the point of having no point.

gassho

Taigu

It may be pointed out that there is one pointed point so open as to sweep in all points without exception. Point at your nose or point to the farthest star, and the point points at the point. In fact, any one point fully expresses and reflects all points, like points of light reflected endlessly in the mirrors of Indra's Net. One cannot even call the point a "point" in space and time, or big or small, or point out where it came from or where it's going ... because nothing is outside to point to for compare! Yet, sometimes the compass needle points north south east or west, sometimes the hands of the clock point to 3:00 or 9:00, sometimes it is a sharp or dull point. Zazen is sat right at such point! "That's Pointless!" 8)

Sometimes I say that, just because sitting is "pointless", "goalless" ... that does not mean that there is no point, no goal. A wonderful goal is to diligently, energetically attain in one's bones that attainment of no goal and nothing in need of attaining! That's the Pointless point. :shock:

Get the point? Anyway, pardon my pointless comment ... I am on the 3rd day of the flu, and my head feels pointy.

Gassho, J

[Saijun]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Get the point? Anyway, pardon my pointless comment ... I am on the 3rd day of the flu, and my head feels pointy.
Gassho, J

Hello Jundo,

I'm sorry to hear that you're ill. It must be going around; part of the issue that kept me away from the internet was my semi-yearly bout with pneumonia. I think I've got it on the ropes, though, and sincerely hope that you get back up to snuff soon.

Metta,

Saijun

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Get the point? Anyway, pardon my pointless comment ... I am on the 3rd day of the flu, and my head feels pointy.

Yes, after reading it a dozen times (my wife was also asking me questions while I was reading, so it took even more readings than usual) I think I finally got the point... I think I also got a headache, but it's probably just the ignorance leaving my head! Thanks for pointing us in the right pointless direction, Jundo, Taigu and Sawaki!

Gassho,
Pontus

[ghop]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

I am on the 3rd day of the flu, and my head feels pointy.

I'm on my first day. :roll:

Will be doing zazen in the corpse pose today.

I should've listened to my mom and got the flu shot.

gassho
and feel better soon Jundo!
Greg

[Stephanie]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

I think this pointlessness is a major gate or barrier, a significant koan, in the Soto way, and in any way.

For me, realizing pointlessness was heartbreaking. It meant realizing all my big dreams were useless, nonreal fluff.

There is no kumbaya, there is no unicorn in the meadow at the end of the rainbow. We don't get a big cuddle and slap on the back.

I think this is where the nontheistic aspect of Buddhism really comes in. Realizing pointlessness is realizing that there is no plan for you, no cosmic parent with a design for your life who holds you in his or her loving embrace. You're really alone out here, it really is your life, and it really is just this, and has been just this since the beginning of beginningless time. Let go of all your baggage and ideas, all your goals and fantasies of endless power and control, all your hopes for the happy ending in the script you've written for your life.

"Coming empty handed, going empty handed, that is human." -Seung Sahn

[Rich]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

I think this pointlessness is a major gate or barrier, a significant koan, in the Soto way, and in any way.

For me, realizing pointlessness was heartbreaking. It meant realizing all my big dreams were useless, nonreal fluff.

There is no kumbaya, there is no unicorn in the meadow at the end of the rainbow. We don't get a big cuddle and slap on the back.

I think this is where the nontheistic aspect of Buddhism really comes in. Realizing pointlessness is realizing that there is no plan for you, no cosmic parent with a design for your life who holds you in his or her loving embrace. You're really alone out here, it really is your life, and it really is just this, and has been just this since the beginning of beginningless time. Let go of all your baggage and ideas, all your goals and fantasies of endless power and control, all your hopes for the happy ending in the script you've written for your life.

"Coming empty handed, going empty handed, that is human." -Seung Sahn

There might be no cosmic plan but you can still make plans and work with that plan, even if it is a simple plan for today. You are already queen of the universe.

[Jundo]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

I think this is where the nontheistic aspect of Buddhism really comes in. Realizing pointlessness is realizing that there is no plan for you, no cosmic parent with a design for your life who holds you in his or her loving embrace. You're really alone out here, it really is your life, and it really is just this, and has been just this since the beginning of beginningless time. Let go of all your baggage and ideas, all your goals and fantasies of endless power and control, all your hopes for the happy ending in the script you've written for your life.

"Coming empty handed, going empty handed, that is human." -Seung Sahn

But this "pointlessness" is not, said the Buddha many times, a pointless, meaningless, nihilism.

For something still embraces, one is not alone, the baggage is let go and ... there is a happy endingless ending.