Meditation is pointless...

[Adam]

Hello everyone,

I'm currently reading Meditation Now Or Never by Steve Hagen. He speaks about zazen being pointless. He doesn't mean that we shouldn't practice zazen, he means that if we are looking for some sort of benefit, or reward, then it would be pointless. I found this a very interesting view and I wanted to know your thoughts. I often find that my ego wants to this practice to have some end point. Some sort of finish line with a banner that reads, "Welcome to enlightenment." I think this is human nature, but I found that the more I sit, the less this thought plagues my mind. After all, there is nothing "out there" to achieve in this practice. Enlightenment isn't something we can grasp; Nirvana isn't a place. To sit is enlightenment; to smile is nirvana. Each time that my ego expects something from this practice, I come back to this moment. I try to focus on what I'm currently doing because zazen isn't practiced only on the cushion. Thank you for your time.

Gassho,

Adam

[Dosho]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Hi Adam,

My view on this has always been much like my signature line from Aitken Roshi: If you go looking for enlightenment you will never find it. After that, I cannot say...but sitting seems to offer a benefit in this world, right here, right now because I'm NOT looking for a benefit from zazen. The rest will either take care of itself or it won't. In all cases, I just sit.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Yes, I agree, see my signature too!


By Kodo Sawaki Roshi (http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/kodo-sa ... -you.shtml):

To you who is wondering if your zazen has been good for something

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What’s zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re?truly practicing what’s good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is really good for nothing.

You say you want to become a better person by doing zazen. Zazen isn’t about learning how to be a person. Zazen is to stop being a person.

Zazen is unsatisfying. Unsatisfying for whom? For the ordinary person. People are never satisfied.

Isn’t it self-evident? How could that which is eternal and infinite ever satisfy human desires?

Unsatisfying: simply practicing zazen.
Unsatisfying: realizing zazen with this body.
Unsatisfying: absorbing zazen into your flesh and blood.

Being watched by zazen, cursed by zazen, blocked by zazen, dragged around by zazen, every day crying tears of blood – isn’t that the happiest form of life you can imagine?

You say “When I do zazen, I get disturbing thoughts!” Foolish! The fact is that it’s only in zazen that you’re aware of your disturbing thoughts at all. When you dance around with your disturbing thoughts, you don’t notice them at all. When a mosquito bites you during zazen, you notice it right away. But when you’re dancing and a flea bites your balls, you don’t notice it at all.

Don’t whine. Don’t stare into space. Just sit!


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Gassho,
Pontus

[Hogo]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Hi Adam,
When I decided to start practicing zazen I was not looking for enlightenment, what I needed (wanted?) at the time was perspective, and I just thought this might help. I was and still am mostly ignorant of many of the concepts of buddhisim including nirvana, awakining, re-birth, and the like.
This came up while we were discussing our practice at the Tea Party this Sunday. I made mention that this past week I had been givin a great challenge to face in life, an ongoing situation that is close to hiting a crital point, Mother far away and ailing in health, an abusive, and unstable Alcholic brother living with her, and myself wishing to do something about it, but not welcome to do so by anyone....Anyway not important the point being I said that a year ago (prior to Zen) I know I would have been compleatly freaked out and running about in a frantic state and forcing issuses, basicly causing a bigger mess of things.
Now I certainly had a couple rough days while on the phone with realatives, and trying to get a handle on the situation, worried, stressed, angry, just upset, Normal.........but I did not loose my cool (as I am prone to do ops: )

I do not mean to ramble or make it about me, my point is that as I read your post I thought of how I had come to feel that Zen has had an impact in this situation.
No great enlightenment, I do not feel I have been "FIXED" or gained anything, I just feel that I have learend just a little to see myself from a different perspective, and perhaps be more apt to catch myself when heading in the wrong direction.....I think.
This is what I have come to expect from myself, and practice...maybe I should not expect or want anything? and I really don't feel I need any reward for sitting ..but I sure am grateful for the practice when I recognized a positive change in myself.

I don't need enlightenment, I just need to get through each day, as best I can, I have no doubt that Zazen is pointless, but I sure don't feel quite right when I skip it, so it must be having some effect, and as long as it feels right I'll keep on doing it.
Just wanted to share my view of Zazen, I suspect it means a little something different for all of us.

Gassho. ~Dave.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Dave, I agree, in a way.
But do you think Sawaki the grumpy old fool agrees? :evil: :wink:


To you who says that you have attained a better state of mind through zazen

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As long as you say zazen is a good thing, something isn’t quite right. Unstained zazen is absolutely nothing special. It isn’t even necessary to be grateful for it.
Wouldn’t it be strange if a baby said to its mother, “Please have understanding for the fact that I’m always shitting in my diapers.”
Without knowledge, without consciousness, everything is as it should be.
Don’t stain your zazen by saying that you’ve progressed, feel better or have become more confident through zazen.

We only say, “Things are going well!” when they’re going our way.

We should simply leave the water of our original nature as it is. But instead we are constantly mucking about with our hands to find out how cold or warm it is. That’s why it gets cloudy.

There’s nothing more unpleasant than staining zazen. “Staining” means making a face like a department head, corporate boss or chairperson. Washing away the stains is what’s meant by “simplicity” [shikan].

There are bodhisattvas “without magical abilities”. These are bodhisattvas who have even entirely forgotten words like “practice” or “satori”, bodhisattvas without wonderful powers, bodhisattvas who are immeasurable, bodhisattvas who are not interested in their name and fame.

Zazen isn’t like a thermometer where the temperature slowly rises: “Just a little more … yeah … that’s it! Now, I’ve got satori!” Zazen never becomes anything special, no matter how long you practice. If it becomes something special, you must have a screw lose somewhere.

If we don’t watch out, we’ll start believing that the buddha-dharma is like climbing up a staircase. But it isn’t like this at all. This very step right now is the one practice which includes all practices, and it is all practices, contained in this one practice.

If you do something good, you can’t forget you’ve done something good. If you’ve had satori, you get stuck in the awareness of having satori. That’s why it’s better to keep your hands off good deeds and satori. You’ve got to be perfectly open and free. Don’t rest on your laurels!

Even if I say all of this about the buddha way, ordinary people will still use the buddha-dharma to try and enhance their value as humans.


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[anista]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

After all, there is nothing "out there" to achieve in this practice. Enlightenment isn't something we can grasp; Nirvana isn't a place. To sit is enlightenment; to smile is nirvana. Each time that my ego expects something from this practice, I come back to this moment.
Gassho,

Adam

True, but at the same time, too oversimplified. Awakening is not the same as to smile, sitting is not the same as nirvana. Much of zen terminology is emanating from different aspects of reality. That's why we can say that "there is nothing to reach", but at the same time, "there is plenty to reach". Trying to reach it, though, can make you miss it.

When it comes to not having to reach something we have already got, the notion of buddhadhatu is to blame. Buddhadhatu is problematic, in more than one way. If that buddha nature is existent in all of us, either it is a) not subject to change, which makes it a kind of atman, or b) is subject to change, but then it's just as illusory as the self. Why mention it at all? I mean, the buddha said it was possible to wake up - no need to refer to our inherent buddha nature, unless you are trying to align the buddhadharma with vedic ones.

This buddhadhatu is the hardest part for me to reconcile with.

So, I don't agree that meditation is pointless. There is a perfectly clear point. However, I believe that sometimes it is useful for people to believe that there is no point, in order to make them drop their constant search for nirvana. This belief, which is a tool for our practice, is very much like the belief in pure lands. Sure, the pure land is right here, in your own mind, but it is portrayed as a an actual land in order to make those who practice more diligent in their practice.

To quote a certain Kenobi: "What I told you was the truth. From a certain point of view".

There are many truths depending on our own point of view, yet there is only one truth.

[Adam]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

True, but at the same time, too oversimplified. Awakening is not the same as to smile, sitting is not the same as nirvana. Much of zen terminology is emanating from different aspects of reality. That's why we can say that "there is nothing to reach", but at the same time, "there is plenty to reach". Trying to reach it, though, can make you miss it.

I agree. However, what I mean is that when one sits with the intention of becoming awakened, then that is pointless because you will never achieve this goal. Any time we strive for awakening, we have already failed. We cannot strive for something that is with us at all times. We should sit, to just sit. Not expecting anything from our sitting, but gaining everything from it. Does that make sense? I am not saying in this post that zazen is in anyway pointless. I'm pointing to the fact that we cannot expect our sitting will lead to awakening, but we become awakened in the process. I hope I'm making sense.

Gassho,

Adam

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Some people would argue that even though we deny that we are trying to attain something, we are only fooling ourselves. Subconsciously we still hold on to that idea of enlightenment as something we need to attain. You may call me paranoid, but I don't dare to read books like the Three Pillars of Zen from this reason... I don't want to read about people's Kensho-experiences, because I'm afraid I would subconsciously start longing for it. I'd rather repeat my mantra that Zazen is good for nothing until hopefully one day I believe in it. I'm aware that I may just be deluding myself...

Gassho,
Pontus

[tcv]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Some people would argue that even though we deny that we are trying to attain something, we are only fooling ourselves. Subconsciously we still hold on to that idea of enlightenment as something we need to attain.

I think I know what you mean. Sometimes, I'll think I am not feeling particularly driven. Later on, in reflection, I'll sometimes realize that I was trying to attain something. My work life is very goal-oriented and that easily comes into my personal life, including my meditation.

[Saijun]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

When it comes to not having to reach something we have already got, the notion of buddhadhatu is to blame. Buddhadhatu is problematic, in more than one way. If that buddha nature is existent in all of us, either it is a) not subject to change, which makes it a kind of atman, or b) is subject to change, but then it's just as illusory as the self. Why mention it at all? I mean, the buddha said it was possible to wake up - no need to refer to our inherent buddha nature, unless you are trying to align the buddhadharma with vedic ones.

This buddhadhatu is the hardest part for me to reconcile with.

Hello Anista,

Perhaps Reality is Buddha-Nature? Always exactly what it is, unchanging and eternal at an absolute point of view, even while dynamic and impermanent at a relative. Maybe it would be more accurate to say, "All of us are extant in Buddha-Nature." Reality is reality, Buddha-Nature is Buddha-Nature (whatever that does turn out to mean). Could the whole issue be as simple as holding on to one's concept of what "Buddha Nature" or "Reality" is, or should be?

Just my thoughts.

Metta,

Saijun

[Hogo]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Dave, I agree, in a way.
But do you think Sadowaki the grumpy old fool agrees?

Thank you for your reply, and to everyone else. Good stuff to think on and add to the perspective.
Gassho.

[Taigu]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Not too bad, Saijun, but don't even be attached to this.
Anista, when you say : there is plenty to reach", who is reaching what?

Awakening is not a product we may get from the Zen shelf, it is not something we can hold or have, we are it. And when we are it, we are not aware of it. Awakening is not navel gazing. It is the natural activity of reality expressed fully in our sitting. Our sitting is pointless like trees, birds, mountains and stuff like that. when you give zazen a goal, you restrict its nature, you give it a flavour, pointless zazen is absolutely open, unconditionnally open, open on the open itself. We not having a strategy here, pretending it is pointless so we can get the goodies from it, it is truly endless, timeless and pointless. The journey is without goal because it never ends. Sawaki Kodo wanted people to realize that limiting boundless activity was ridiculous.

gassho

Taigu

[Taylor]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Rereading "Opening the Hand of Thought". I find it something like this:

Aiming with the bow at no target, we soon get cocky saying "oh ho ho! no target indeed!" and decide to shoot at something anyway. The arrow ends up in your foot, we just don't realize we've stuck ourselves to the ground sometimes! Still looking off into the distance for our target, our arrow in the bullseye. Doesn't mean we can't pull it out and come back to where we are though :P

Something like that?

Gassho,
Taylor (Myoken)

[Taigu]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Something like that, Myoken.

gassho


Taigu

[Jinho]

Re: Meditation is pointless...

Some people would argue that even though we deny that we are trying to attain something, we are only fooling ourselves. Subconsciously we still hold on to that idea of enlightenment as something we need to attain. You may call me paranoid, but I don't dare to read books like the Three Pillars of Zen from this reason... I don't want to read about people's Kensho-experiences, because I'm afraid I would subconsciously start longing for it. I'd rather repeat my mantra that Zazen is good for nothing until hopefully one day I believe in it. I'm aware that I may just be deluding myself...

Gassho,
Pontus

Wanting enlightenment is a very good thing. "attaining enlightenment" is merely experience a great understanding in one's whole being.

I want to know what is this thing called enlightenment and that QUESTION has led me to many significant experiences.

It is important when sitting to let that desire to find out what enlightenmetn is, to let that drop away from the forefront of one's consciousness because that desire is an in-the-future thing and nothing happens in the future, there is only this moment. And so enlightenment, like everything else, can only happen in This Moment. But it is probably more expedient to turn one's desire for enlightenment into a question.

And I want to encourage people not to settle for feeling peaceful, being mindful. Or at least perhaps to consider not settling for those things. Because the great promise of zen buddhism is that experiencing enlightenment is not something that just happened to some prince who lived 2500 years ago, it is available to everyone.

thank you for yoru time,
gassho
rowan jinho
who very definitely doesn't sit zazen just to sit on her butt