Koans You

[Dokan]

Hi All,

So I thought I'd bring to the forum a question on koan study. I know that in zazen we focus on shikantaza. However, in your travels I am certain everyone must come across some level of koans...even if they are not from formal sources such as The Gateless Gate but just simply life. My question comes on how they are applied to y/our practice?

When I sit, I simply sit. But when I encounter a koan (be from dharma talks or books) I'm not certain on what to do with it. I understand that they are meant to short-circuit the intellectual process, but at which point would you 'focus' on a koan if not in zazen? Sometimes I will stop and think about them after reading a chapter of a book or hearing a podcast, but then, as I understand it, I am missing the point as I'm using my logic and intellect to attempt to realize something that is seemingly paradoxical.

Of course, maybe we simply ignore koans altogether as unnecessary...either way, I would love to hear how others approach this topic and what they do, if anything with it.

Gassho,

Shawn

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Koans You

In the Soto tradition, one doesn't sit with Koans during Zazen. But there's nothing hindering you from working on a Koan when you aren't doing Shikantaza. It's just not the most important aspect of practice. In the Rinzai and Yasutani-Harada (mix of Soto and Rinzai) traditions Koans are very important. One carries the Koan with him both in ordinary life and concentrates on it during Zazen, often a small part that is used almost as a mantra. In these traditions, Koans are used to trigger a Kensho experience, a glimpse of true reality or the true order of things, and sudden awakening to this same reality, Satori. In Soto enlightenment is instead both slower, over one's life, and immediate, since enlightenment = practice and the other way around.

This is my limited take. Please correct any misunderstandings!

Gassho,
Pontus

PS I describe my relationship with Koans in this thread! DS.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3391

[Taigu]

Re: Koans You

Thank you Shawn for asking and thank you Pontus for answering.

The practice of Shikantaza is just what we do here. Just what we do.

In other schools or traditions, you may bump into koan practice, in the wonderful White Plum Lineage, both flavours are mixed. Here, it is not the case. So although we mention koans, we read koans through Dogen's work, we have no particular way of working on them. Rather than swallow them up, we let Zazen to swallow us up, we allow shikantaza to swallow us up. Koans are not riddles or even funny devices to bypass the dualistic mind. In the Rinzai tradition, you are invited to be so intimate with the koan, that koan and you are nothing but one. The answer to the koan is your life itself. The way you breathe, move, sit, smile or cry. In our Soto tradition, all along we are invited to act and unfold from the space of shikantaza. From that space, everything becomes a gate. Activities of our daily life are the koans we practice and study. People we meet the teachers. This body-mind-world the monastery and dokusan room. Then, we may bump into koans and they are just seen clearly. But we are not given any or searching for any. So there is no need to focus on koans. When met, let them go. Return to shikantaza, return to I-don't-know which is the source of it all. After some years of shikantaza, koans may appear very clearly and very simply before our eyes. They looked so weird and strange some time ago; now, just fine. We never try to do anything special with them. Just sit. Understanding or not...does'nt matter. Just being matters. Be you.

gassho

Taigu

[Hogo]

Re: Koans You

As Taigu said thank you for asking Shawn, and thank you both for the answers. It has lifted a little load off my mind in an unexpected way.
Gassho.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Koans You

It has lifted a little load off my mind in an unexpected way.

In what way, if I may ask? You don't have to answer if you don't feel like it.

Gassho,
/Pontus

Edit: Spelling

[Hogo]

Re: Koans You

It has lifted a little load off my mind in an unexpected way.

In what way, if I may ask? You don't answer if you don't feel like it.

Gassho,
/Pontus

Apologizes for my vaugness, I try not to say much when I don't feel particularly smart on a subject, and thus is the case with Koans. Shawn asked a question which I probably would not have made the effort to ask, but upon seeing the answers realized that I was seeing the Koans in an interesting way, as something to be chewed on, or to be clever with even though my mind simply says ...........Huh?..........not that I really ever get too spun up about them but it is hard from a state of ignorance to know how much (or little) effort to throw at something, So I guess what I am saying is that I am thankful for a post that shone a light where I had not thought to look.... or something.....clear as mud?
Hope that kinda answers your question.
Gassho.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Koans You

clear as mud?
Hope that kinda answers your question.

Yes, thank you.
So now you know that no effort is needed! (Or if you should end up in Rinzai, ALL of your effort is needed...)
Clever thinking doesn't take you very far with most Koans, but I'm still so attached to my conceptualizing that I have to let myself conceptualize before I can start letting go...
When I first got interested in Zen fifteen years ago (I had a long hiatus) I tried Koan practice, but never got past the first! Now I think I have mostly let it go, but return to it once in a while for fun, so see if my view has changed anything since the last time. I also read other Koans from time to time, but I let them go after I stop reading.

Also, remember that most of these stories were written hundreds if not thousands of years ago. In our time, in our western culture, we don't have the cultural background or understanding of terms and concepts in these Koans, which makes them even more convoluted!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Ankai]

Re: Koans You

return to I-don't-know which is the source of it all.

...WELL written. Gassho.

[Hogo]

Re: Koans You

Also, remember that most of these stories were written hundreds if not thousands of years ago. In our time, in our western culture, we don't have the cultural background or understanding of terms and concepts in these Koans, which makes them even more convoluted!

Oh well that explains it! :wink:
LOL well next time I am staring blankly at one of Taigu's videos I can just say, ahhhhh its not me its the crusty old dudes that wrote this stuff!
but really I have learned that for me anyway much of this teaching just needs to be absorbed slowly, if not clearly right away.
The more I tried to digest, and quickly the more I choked on it.... and so now here I sit doing my best impersonation of a sponge.
Gassho
~Dave.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Koans You

LOL well next time I am staring blankly at one of Taigu's videos I can just say, ahhhhh its not me its the crusty old dudes that wrote this stuff!

I wouldn't call Taigu a crusty old dude... :shock: :lol: :wink:

[Hogo]

Re: Koans You

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sure throw me under the bus. I errr.. was refering to the crusty old dudes who teachings Taigu has generously offered to guide us through.......yup.
Though I will admit still maybe nearly half of what Taigu says goes over my head I still consider every minute spent with him a well spent one.

[Rimon]

Re: Koans You

Taking our daily lives as koans to solve, from our experience while in shinkantaza. Hhhhhmmm

In situations when stress, anger, excitement, boredom... don't let me think clearly I bring to my mind the concept of "washing the dishes in order to wash the dishes by Thich Nhat Hanh (from his book: The miracle of mindfulness

[There are two ways to wash the dishes. The first way is to wash the dishes in order to have clean dishes and the second way is to wash the dishes in order to wash the dishes.(p.4)

In more detail:

While washing the dishes one should only be washing the dishes, which means that while washing the dishes one should be completely aware of the fact that one is washing the dishes. At first glance this might seem a little silly: why put so much stress on a simple thing? But that's precisely the point. The fact that I am standing there and washing these bowls is a wondrous reality. I'm being completely myself, following my breath, conscious of my presence, and conscious of my thoughts and actions. There's no way I can be tossed around mindlessly like a bottle slapped here and there on the waves. (pp.3-4)

Gassho

[Janne H]

Re: Koans You

How about singing and washing the dishes? And maybe dedicating a song to the bowls?

Can I not be as mindful then? Sure I can!

So, maybe not think that you have to attend to just the dishes when washing, instead being with the moment as it is, and if you don´t care for singing, don´t sing. On the other hand if you don´t care for washing the dishes, you probably still have to do it, and then just do that.

We tend to neglect the act of washing dishes, that´s the problem, and on the other way around we should not neglect all else that is right there.

Just a different viewpoint I wanted to share.

Janne

[Tb]

Re: Koans You

Hi.

Just putting in an excercise we used during the Ango, and its still applicable now.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2973

Clean up around the sink, so that there are only the dirty dishes there to be washed.

Get everything ready so that you can wash them by hand.

Wash the dishes intently one by one, as if each plate was the most important thing in the world ... as if handling a precious child.

Clean diligently, removing the grime, while simultaneously dropping all thoughts of "clean" and "dirty" (if that is difficult, see if you can drop any negative feelings about the dirtiness, and see the dirty state with acceptance and equanimity).

Do not rush it.
Proceed ahead at a steady pace, taking care.
Drop all thought of some goal to attain, even while forging ahead.
Let each plate take it's time.

How did it feel?
Was it different than usual (if you usually do the dishes)?
Did you feel stressed? More at ease?
Can you consider doing this again, and other work in such "non gaining" way?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Dokan]

Re: Koans You

Thank you for your wonderful replies. Several of the things you posted hit me right where I am coming from.

Much of my beginnings in Zen were under the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh. And, exactly as Rimon posted is how I find koans in my daily life...the practice of mindfulness.

I also spent a couple years with Daido Roshi (and the others at MRO) as my primary source of teaching, thus Yasutani-Harada lineage as Pontus referenced. Which while being of the Soto tradition and lineage, taught using koans but then emphasized shikantaza on the zafu. Which is most likely my source of confusion. I find also, from these teachings that the koans that are studied spill over into my daily life.

In the Rinzai tradition, you are invited to be so intimate with the koan, that koan and you are nothing but one. The answer to the koan is your life itself. The way you breathe, move, sit, smile or cry. In our Soto tradition, all along we are invited to act and unfold from the space of shikantaza. From that space, everything becomes a gate.

The comparison of the two is very much appreciated and helps immensely. I believe my disconnect comes in that I have been using shikantaza as a tool for just the zafu and then leaving it there. Then when I encounter a koan in my readings/listenings/"beings" I have stumbled with how to proceed with it. Which brings me to...

Return to shikantaza, return to I-don't-know which is the source of it all.

I believe there is a jewel of clarity here but I'm not sure I grasp this yet. However I believe your admonition to not focus on koans and that through our practice, (shikantaza) koans will be realized without need for introspection.

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding.

Many bows.

Shawn