What happened to this place?

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: What happened to this place?

Lost my temper? Where did that happen?

The Genpo thread? You mean you didn't lose your temper at all? OK, my mistake!

I was talking to two mods here who agree that the 'discussion' aspect of this discussion forum is lacking. I'm not entirely alone in my assessment - even if I'm relatively alone in being vocal about it.

I joined in december, so I don't know how things were before. But I think there have been a few really interesting discussions lately, so I'm satisfied with the forum so far. There could be more discussion on our practice, state, fears etc, but it's easier to discuss Karma or how to get into the lotus position, because you don't have to open up in the same way. It would be wonderful though if we could confess our mistakes, admit our failures, rejoice in our discoveries.

The philosophical discussion can be interesting and fun, but sometimes they don't feel that important to practice, at leaast in my opinion. And sometimes they tend to turn into dharma-measuring contests or ego promotion.

I agree with Shawn that the best way to do something about a situation you find lacking is to post a few interesting topics yourself! Looking forward to them!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Dokan]

Re: What happened to this place?

Lost my temper? Where did that happen?

This may just be a personality difference. Having no history, the perceived tone may be misconstrued as aggressive...therefore I can see how it would appear you lost your temper. I felt the same response. However maybe this is just your direct/challenging way? For myself, should I feel that Taigu, Jundo or honestly anyone else in the sangha needed correction, I would personally proceed with tact and humility, but then I am normally pretty passive and non-confrontational. I think the other situation here is that when a teacher 'corrects' a student, it generally seems as compassionate, whereas when a student corrects a teacher it can be seen as disrespectful...I don't know how to manage that.

I was talking to two mods here who agree that the 'discussion' aspect of this discussion forum is lacking. I'm not entirely alone in my assessment - even if I'm relatively alone in being vocal about it.

Well this is a good thing then in my opinion. Maybe together with the mods you guys could create some deeper/advanced topic discussions? I can't promise I'll have much to contribute, but I'd definitely enjoy reading them.

Gassho,

Shawn

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: What happened to this place?

This may just be a personality difference. Having no history, the perceived tone may be misconstrued as aggressive...therefore I can see how it would appear you lost your temper. I felt the same response. However maybe this is just your direct/challenging way?

Yes, you are probably right. My mistake then! It's always hard to judge people's reactions and emotions on an internet forum. I try to use smilies to convey some sort of mood, but it isn't perfect.

/Pontus

[Tb]

Re: What happened to this place?

Hi.

I was talking to two mods here who agree that the 'discussion' aspect of this discussion forum is lacking. I'm not entirely alone in my assessment - even if I'm relatively alone in being vocal about it.

Well this is a good thing then in my opinion. Maybe together with the mods you guys could create some deeper/advanced topic discussions? I can't promise I'll have much to contribute, but I'd definitely enjoy reading them.

As one of the two Mods being referred to here, i would like to say a few things...

First, I think the discussion here, sometimes, IS lacking, but that doesnt mean its a bad thing.
WE might just be taking a break, having a bad day or something..
Its ok.

There has been some issues on Treeleaf, and to my knowledge, they have been taken care/still being taken care of to the best ability of the involved.
Some might have been better taken care of in another way, some might not have liked the way things were done.
But in the end, as some old fool around here says, its all good practice.
And i would add, a good time for practice.

But i would also point out that ITS YOU THAT MAKE THE FORUM, not me, Chet, Jundo or the muffinman.
If you dont post, there will be no discussions.
You might think you have nothing to add, but you're wrong.
No one but you can add you're perspective, and that perspective is a good one.
Sure, you might not know how to chant the Mahasaccaka Sutra by heart, but that doesnt matter, we are not here for that.
We're here for you.
For your thoughts and your ability to help further the discussions and understanding of the things as they are.
Think you don't know anything about Sutras, and all that?
Fine, post in the about life section or the Buddhist family holidays & practices workshop etc. see the talks put up by Jundo and Taigu, attend the teaparties, sit in the zenhall...
But, most of all CONTRIBUTE.
Only you know how.

And please play nice.
This time, Chet just happened, in his unique way, to be the one who put this forth.
Next time it might be you.

Thank you for your practice
Fugen

[Keishin]

Re: What happened to this place?

Answer to the question What happened to this place?

same as it ever was

it is pot luck

That means what there is for others to nourish themselves with depends on what it is everyone brought.

[Dosho]

Re: What happened to this place?

It's not that it's boring - I'm wondering what's at the root of the problem. Apparently not everyone thinks it's a problem.

Also, my 'interesting' threads get me in trouble - wouldn't you say? I've been sort of tentative about stirring the pot until today - and I'm stumped as to why the place isn't a bed of actual discussion and introspection instead of just 'Taigu posts vague poetry about Zen' and everyone lines up and says, 'Oh! Thank you! That was awesome!'

Some of what Taigu writes or vid-posts is actually very profound IMHO - but validating his every post - even the 'hmm....yeah....okay?' ones seems counterproductive.

Is this a Zen group or is it just a 'me-too' daisy-chain?

Also, Taigu's not the 'problem' that I'm pointing out here - he just bugged the heck out of me with heavy-handedness because I don't think he's aware he's being heavy-handed and doing it with a frequent scapegoat that he knows no one will likely defend. Taigu's just as likely to jolt me awake with something - so I don't want you thinking I'm hating on everything Taigu-esque.

Hey Chet,

First off, I hope you know that I was mostly ribbing you with the "boring" comment and was really just making the point that you should start a thread if you want and that it was good to have you back. I notice my initial reactions to you in what some of the newbies have written above and see now how I figured you wrong. A lot of people who get that in your face don't actually care about what's being discussed and just like to argue for the sake of arguing (such as Shawn's reality tv comment). But you do care and if you think something's wrong you say it! That's not a bad thing at all...just not a type of person I had ever run into before then and not very much since.

Ever since a conversation Fugen and I had with you on the tea party about coming back to the forum I have been trying to put into words my feelings about you in the sangha. Up to now I couldn't think of a way to say it without seeming condescending, but given this thread I'll just say it. In most families there is someone who can really get you going. A person who always offers some intense discussion that can get really heated at times and can leave you frustrated and pissed for quite awhile. If this person was a stranger or even a casual friend you might think to avoid them or just forget they ever existed after such an exchange. But when it's family it's different. You don't ever think of that person as potentially out of your life even if you don't see them for weeks or months because they are a permanently bound part of that life. The next time you see them there is no awkwardness over what was said as things just fall back into place...usually with a smile and some genuine affection.

To me you will always be part...an important part...of what makes Treeleaf Treeleaf! Even if you walk out tomorrow and never come back, I will always see you as an essential cog among a chosen few that has made the sangha what it is and whatever it becomes. And in this particular instance I don't disagree with your criticisms as there has been a different vibe of late, but I could never really put my finger on it. For my own part I can say that I tend to avoid more "academic" discussions these days because I can get so wrapped up in them that I forget to sit. I also have a very mobile 18 month old that doesn't allow much time for cohesive thought. But yeah, there is definitely something to the issue you raised in this thread and I'm very glad you raised it.

There is more to say, but I'll leave you with that for now. I am truly glad to have you back and I hope that comes across in what I have written here.

Gassho,
Dosho

[TrevorMcmanis]

Re: What happened to this place?

How about a deep gassho for chet. I agree with you in a lot of ways.

[Risho]

Re: What happened to this place?

I was thinking that about this as well.. But I was thinking about it in terms of myself lately. I've been watching the beginner vids again. You know I sometimes need to go back to the basics. Work is very, very busy right now, so although I do not post a lot right now, I'm practicing, I'm a member of this Sangha. That's the most important thing, practice.. for me right now.

We just did Jukai. That was very, very deep for me. I feel that after Jukai, I'm questioning my practice even more deeply. It's not a bad thing, I'm not saying like hey i'm going to quit, why the hell am I doing this? I mean, what are the Bodhisattva vows to me? That's one of my main questions to me. I'm at the point in my practice, where I'm sort of quiet in discussion but very, very self-absorbed right now. I don't know if it makes sense.

Today, when sitting zazenkai, I heard Jundo explaining the concept of Bodhisattva during hte second round of zazen. I actually really needed to hear that. To me it's still all about the basics.

Or this week at work, I got really, really stressed out about a coding problem. And I sat there with it, and I asked myself why the hell are you getting stressed out like this? I felt the stress over my body. I sat with the stress during zazen, and I even got to the point where I laughed at it.

Sometimes, I listen to the sit-along videos, and I don't even know what question to ask. I'm slow to learn sometimes, but it takes time to just soak it in. Personally, I don't have a lot of profound things or see the need to shake up some proverbial pot.

I'm really just here to practice with everyone, and I like the birthday threads by the way. It's nice to take the time to wish someone a happy birthday amidst what may be a crazy work week, a crazy day with raising kids, a crazy day battling some disease...

I don't know I haven't posted much like I said because I don't have anything profound to offer. When Taigu sensei or Jundo sensei write about something.. .Sometimes it hits me and all I can say is thank you. And I mean it.

I guess you only know as much of me as I let on because we're limited to this forum; however, I can say that the last thing I want my practice to turn into is a damned sycophantic bunch of bs. Or a narcissistic bunch of bs for that matter.

Now I'm rambling... but practice like life is boring sometimes. Thank goodness for that; I've learned through practice that boring is good. And I've also learned through Jukai and sewing the rakusu that it's slow and steady... just consistent, slow and steady.

I'm glad Jennifer mentioned she was having some tough times with practice thsi week on the zazenkai thread. You know I have too. After Jukai, I've been really really introspective moreso than ever about this practice, and to me that statement reached me. That's what this sangha is sometimes; you know sometimes it's explosive and profound.. Sometimes we're just people trying to keep a practice. But most importantly we are here.

Anyway those are my rambling thoughts, and for the record I did miss you Chet; you always make me think, and I do like when you stir crap up. haahhah

Cyril

[Jundo]

Re: What happened to this place?

Hi Guys,

Please be warm in speech toward each other, no matter the topic. **

I would say that, in the past week alone, we have had some fairly good discussions of ...

Fallen Zen Masters

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3416

Karma and Life after Death

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3335

Silencing Thoughts during Zazen

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3396

Free Will in Buddhism

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3388

Go back over the last several years, and we have talked about just about everything in all time and space and the kitchen sink, and we will again ... as topics are reborn and reborn in future lives.

All things come in waves. Now is just a time where folks may not be too chatty or are silent, which (last time I checked) is a good thing in the Zen world.

And, if there is a subject that is something that ya really want to toss out there for discussion ... DO IT!

I also think that we are going overboard with the "Happy Birthdays"! 8) Maybe we could do what they do at the office, and have a monthly "Happy Birthday" party for everyone. Also, I wish we could have cake.

Gassho, Jundo

** Our one true “rule” of the Sangha (besides our “rule” to sit Shikantaza Zazen each day) is that members must mutually maintain “gentle speech” in all communication, even when voices disagree on hot issues. Perhaps more than anything, this allows a warm, welcoming and non-hostile atmosphere for new and old, where people can open up without fear.

[Ankai]

Re: What happened to this place?

Okay, Chet.
What would you like to talk about?

[Dokan]

Re: What happened to this place?

Since I was quoted I suppose I should respond.

But i would also point out that ITS YOU THAT MAKE THE FORUM, not me, Chet, Jundo or the muffinman.
If you dont post, there will be no discussions.

I completely agree with you Fugen. My commentary was simply that if people feel the forum is lacking, then make contributions to make it better. I personally am not asking anyone to make the forum better. Being new I have been content with the forums, even sometimes feeling like I'm drinking from a firehose. If we talked on deeper subjects, then great. If we talk about birthdays, that's ok for me as well.

I noticed that it was two months yesterday I joined Treeleaf and have made 120 postings...could it also maybe be partly the quality of my posts detract from the usefulness to some senior members? I can fully understand how people who have been here for years are not maybe so interested in discussing beginner topics, but I'm also not sure how the newer members can provide topics for deeper introspection that maybe some feel are missing.

That being said, there are many times in my readings that I come across topics that blow right over my head (the recent ones on karma & the role of Bodhisattva's come to mind)...I will try to bring these to the forums in hope to stir deeper conversation while at the same time maybe find some answers for myself.

Thank you for your clarity Fugen.

Gassho,

Shawn

[Jundo]

Re: What happened to this place?

I can fully understand how people who have been here for years are not maybe so interested in discussing beginner topics, but I'm also not sure how the newer members can provide topics for deeper introspection that maybe some feel are missing.

Oh, so many of these topics are bottomless wells and endless treasures, well worth the return to again and again. We are ALL, always beginners ... so no problem to go "back to the basics" any number of times. There are no "beginner topics" ... except all of them.

Also, certainly, some discussion or teaching may go "over someone's head" if new to all this. No problem, give it time. Some may still go "over our heads" even 100 years into practicing.

Never be afraid to discuss something because it seems too "simple" ... or to hesitate to comment on something because you think your comment is not worthwhile.

Gassho, J

[ghop]

Re: What happened to this place?

Never be afraid to discuss something because it seems too "simple" ... or to hesitate to comment on something because you think your comment is not worthwhile.

I would like to talk about backhair. ops:

where does buddha stand on this topic?

gassho
Greg

[ghop]

Re: What happened to this place?

Chett,

Putt the fire out...

And don't look past your shoulder...

gassho
Greg

[Dokan]

Re: What happened to this place?

Never be afraid to discuss something because it seems too "simple" ... or to hesitate to comment on something because you think your comment is not worthwhile.

Well received advice. I honestly have difficulty in commenting on discussions I have little to no understanding of (the Karma discussion is a good example). However I do follow them intently and when there is a point of clarity (like Stephanie's post on the same) comes out, it sticks firmly in my head. So maybe in time, when new Treeleafers from 2025 show up and ask about karma, I can share what I learned from that thread. I think this is ok as well.

Gassho,

Shawn