Karma

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Karma

I think that it's important to remember that karma is more cause and effect than a cosmic balancing system. The old president of Uganda, Idi Amin, was a brutal man. The number of people that died under his rule was in the neighborhood of 100,000 or more. He enjoyed every luxury that one could think of when one rules the entirety of a country, no matter how lavish.

But his actions got him deposed and exiled. But even if he didn't get deposed or exiled, how did he end up living his life? He became unstable and confused, he became deranged. People left him and those that remained, he knew were there only because they feared him. What must that do to a person, to know that your wife married you because to say "no" was as good as a death sentence for her? The absence of love, trust, friendship, caring, eventually even the departure from reality to the point he thought he was the last king of Scotland. Is it fair? Does that make things "Even-Steven"? No, not really, but then karma isn't a set of metaphysical scales trying to make everything square. It is simple cause and effect, but it doesn't simply stop at the physical world, or rather the world that can be objectively measured. Those that do all the "bad shit" have to live with it. Even with good intentions that's hard. One of my best friends, a US soldier, has been in every major conflict since 1997. He's a Purple Heart recipient, and has medals for bravery. He joined with the idea of defending the freedoms of Americans. He wakes up at night, sometimes screaming, the memories of the men whose lives he had to take (or loose his own) haunting him. Is that "right"? Or deserved? No, not in my mind, but then karma isn't making sure people get what they deserve. It is the result of the actions he took, well intentioned, good, bad, indifferent, survivalist, pragmatic or what have you.

You might not always end up "balancing the ledger" in the eyes of the world, but good or bad you will never escape the karma of your actions.

[Rich]

Re: Karma

Great speech! Thank you.

It starts with ignorance because it is our ignorance of mind as mind that keeps us taking our thoughts and views of the world as the reality of the world.


BUT... this sphere, this outward material sphere, is not where karma unfolds. Karma unfolds in the subjective sphere. The way the Buddha taught karma, it was about what we do with our minds. Thinking and reacting in a certain way creates a mental "groove" that we get stuck in. The way we think creates our world. Not in some magic, "The Secret" sense. But in the sense that our mind dramatically shapes how we experience the world.


And so on... I think this is very important because it gets at the heart of what the Buddha's teaching was all about. Which is that we look to the wrong place for answers and for happiness. We look to the world outside, not to the thinking that makes that world seem a certain way. We believe our thoughts and don't look to the thinker. As long as we keep looking outside ourselves, we stay stuck in the same repetitive cycle of dissatisfaction. The Buddha's revolutionary insight was that we can stop this cycle of frustration and dissatisfaction by placing our attention correctly. This means not automatically believing our thoughts or getting caught up in the content of our minds.

One of my favorite Zen koans is the "fox koan," which basically boils down to a question about karma and reincarnation. The question is, does waking up mean we are freed from karma? The person that answers that waking up means we are no longer affected by karma, who says that we transcend cause and effect when we wake up, spends 500 lives as a fox! The wiser person says we do not transcend cause and effect, but we see cause and effect. At any time, we can see what we are doing and the crazy things we are playing out inside our heads, and stop.

This takes a lot of practice.

[Risho]

Re: Karma

Thank you Stephanie! That really clarified a lot for me.

Gassho,

Risho

[Shonin]

Re: Karma

Stephanie, you have far more profound thoughts on many topics than what seeps into my brain. So you shouldn't feel like a dumbass at all.

[jonhinkson]

Re: Karma

Stephanie! That was very clear! Thank you for sharing!

Gassho,

Jonathan

[Nenka]

Re: Karma

Agreed! Great post, Stephanie.

Gassho

Jennifer

[chicanobudista]

Re: Karma

It wasn't until I read Steve Hagen's explanation of the twelvefold chain in Buddhism Plain and Simple that I got it. Suddenly, it all made sense. Perfect, beautiful sense.

Dusting off that book....do your remember the pages where he writes about this subject?

[David Hallam]

Re: Karma

Many thanks to everyone who commented on my post concerning Karma. I'm very grateful, but not convinced. The only comment with which I strongly disagree is the 'get back to meditation and drop this thinking stuff'. The Buddha thought a lot, so I guess I can try to sometimes as well.

The idea that we can, as it were, read the mind of someone who appears to be very much contented while living a life of nastiness is, I believe, a quite dangerous fiction. No doubt many people who do a lot of nasty stuff are in torment in their heart-minds, maybe even a lot of torment. And no doubt that shows sometimes, in at least some of these people, to the point where we can all see it when we see them. And I imagine there are lots of people who have much greater subtlety of perception than me who can see torment I couldn't in apparently contented people.

But my experience of people who do nasty stuff - an unfortunately wide experience - is nonetheless that many of them are very clearly contented, even what we call 'well-balanced'. Many of them - if asked - say they are contented, act contented, and believe that their lives are fulfilling and stimulating. Were I to say that they're in some private Hell of the mind that doesn't show, I'd be doing nothing more than speculating rather wildly. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and so on. The manifest and unarguable contentment of these people who do nasty stuff is what I have in mind when I say: No reincarnation, no karma. The fact that karma is the law of cause and effect par excellence happens to mean that effects are sometimes, perhaps even very often, a balancing of the scales, a simulacrum of what we call 'justice'. This does not mean, to me at least, that karma thus has a moral dimension.

And the fact that the so-called self has no independent existence doesn't mean that it goes poof when breathing stops. Indeed, as I understand some teachings of the vajrayana, the empty self may persist for what is a very long time indeed in human terms; as may the sublimely empty self of such as the first Karmapa. The Fox koan is one of my favorites too, and look how long it took that foxy old master to work off his karma. But if this self and all its works really does go poof when breathing stops, then, given the fact of the many contented nasties I've talked about, karma is as empty as it is. Or not?

[Seiryu]

Re: Karma

brilliant Stephanie that was a wonderful response.

I always thought of Karma as not something that comes back to us at a certain time, but I think of Karma as this:
In every moment we are the complete manifestation of all of our previous Karma. which is why one must practice wholeheartedly in the present moment otherwise we will bring ourselves, with our Karmic baggage with us to the next moment.

When we see that this very moment contains all of the teachings of the Buddha, and that this very moment is the only time period that actually exist, we can be freed from our Karma and become a Buddha at the very instance.

I think positive and negative Karma are just words and cannot be understood intellectually but they can be experienced.


*Endless Bow*

Seiryu

[Jundo]

Re: Karma

But my experience of people who do nasty stuff - an unfortunately wide experience - is nonetheless that many of them are very clearly contented, even what we call 'well-balanced'. Many of them - if asked - say they are contented, act contented, and believe that their lives are fulfilling and stimulating. Were I to say that they're in some private Hell of the mind that doesn't show, I'd be doing nothing more than speculating rather wildly. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and so on. The manifest and unarguable contentment of these people who do nasty stuff is what I have in mind when I say: No reincarnation, no karma.

Hi David,

Well, I don't know. A traditional view would be that people who do nasty stuff volitionally will incur the effects ... if not in this life, then in the next ... or after that. So, being content in this life is not the whole picture.

I would also argue that people who do "nasty" stuff will tend to be people filled with "nastiness", and not happy campers, even though ... as you say ... there might be exceptions. Sociopaths, for example, may not feel any remorse for their actions or empathy for those who are hurt. In any event, if one wants to taste the fruits of Buddhist Practice ... the peace and and wholeness ... then it is usually much easier to do if one is not killing, pillaging and robbing old ladies.

Also, harmful actions do have effects for those who are harmed, certainly. And the people harmed, in some Buddhist way, be just the harmer in another guise (I am he and you are he and you are me and we are all together ... I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob 8) )

Anyway, the best comment I received all week was from a friend who has really had a tough time of late, one thing after another. I wrote him to say that it was such a run of bad events, that maybe, if the traditional Buddhists were right, it was Karma working out ... or something like God and the Devil playing games in the Book of Job ... or just a run of really really bad luck. He wrote me back to say something like, "I've just come to the conclusion that it's not karma or a trial of Job, but instead "just life". Whatever it is, although not the hand I would have wished life to deal me, its ok."

Gassho, J

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Karma

But my experience of people who do nasty stuff - an unfortunately wide experience - is nonetheless that many of them are very clearly contented, even what we call 'well-balanced'. Many of them - if asked - say they are contented, act contented, and believe that their lives are fulfilling and stimulating. Were I to say that they're in some private Hell of the mind that doesn't show, I'd be doing nothing more than speculating rather wildly. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and so on. The manifest and unarguable contentment of these people who do nasty stuff is what I have in mind when I say: No reincarnation, no karma. The fact that karma is the law of cause and effect par excellence happens to mean that effects are sometimes, perhaps even very often, a balancing of the scales, a simulacrum of what we call 'justice'. This does not mean, to me at least, that karma thus has a moral dimension.

I don’t know that I agree with this statement. I, personally, have not gotten into deep discussion with people who do really evil deeds, but I don’t know that (unless as Jundo said, there was some type of chemical imbalance, genetic flaw, or madness in them) that they would be content. So many people who do these things are relegated to a life of having to always look over their shoulder. I saw an episode of a new show called “I almost got away with it” and even the guy who professed his innocence over the murder of his wife, ran because he said he thought the police were going to shoot him whether he surrendered or not. He lived free for about 3 years after going on the lamb, and from his statements, it was 3 years of Hell. 3 years of being convinced every seat belt check point, every police car driving by, every traffic ticket would break the cover of his stolen identity. Three years of never being able to do anything that might require any level of scrutiny into his prior life, taking only jobs where credit checks and such were not required. Eventually, he turned himself in because he couldn’t take it anymore.

As to karma being cause and effect par excellence, it is not “justice” in any form or reflection. Justice is a human idea, a concept based on the arbitrary personal or group notion of “bad” and “good”. Is it “just” to kill? No, but we still fight wars and have the death penalty. There are still tribes that cannibalize humans, and that’s just the culture that they lived in. If you hold a ball in your hand, turn your hand over, and open your hand – the ball drops. That’s karma. It applies to action on all levels of existence, the karma of living in fear for committing a crime, no more just than a ball dropping, it just is.

And the fact that the so-called self has no independent existence doesn't mean that it goes poof when breathing stops. Indeed, as I understand some teachings of the vajrayana, the empty self may persist for what is a very long time indeed in human terms; as may the sublimely empty self of such as the first Karmapa. The Fox koan is one of my favorites too, and look how long it took that foxy old master to work off his karma. But if this self and all its works really does go poof when breathing stops, then, given the fact of the many contented nasties I've talked about, karma is as empty as it is. Or not?

If it lingers, then it must have some sort of substance. If it has substance then, were I to ask, you should be able to show it to me. Not your skin, not your mind, or anything like that, but your SELF. I can’t do that myself, as far as I see, my ‘self’ has no mass, displaces no volume, has no thickness, length, breadth or dimension. It exists solely as a construct of my mind, an attempt to separate “me” from “everything else”. I think that it is indeed dangerous to believe that we can tell the mind of others, that includes also thinking that they are “contented” based on either the absence of visual and verifiable proof otherwise, or based on what they tell you (how far can you trust a person like that to be honest, anyway?).

So is it empty? Ask the ball. I don’t think it’s either empty or full. If I leave my rake in the yard and it rains, there is rust. If I park my car where I am not supposed to, there is the worry of a ticket. Even if I didn’t get a ticket, I still had to carry the worry, as though I did get the ticket.

If we follow the Teachings, then we know that we should “be here, now” as Steve Hagan says, and live each moment as though it contains the whole of our existence. If we do that, then we should not find ourselves in a position where karma in whatever form affects us.

[David Hallam]

Re: Karma

How does the mental construct 'self' persist since it has no substance either? But it does, doesn't it? Persist that is. (Let me assure you that I'm not wasting anyone's valuable time dicing words here, even if I may be wasting it in some other way I can't see. I'm really trying to get my heart around "Whither karma?")

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Karma

How does the mental construct 'self' persist since it has no substance either? But it does, doesn't it? Persist that is. (Let me assure you that I'm not wasting anyone's valuable time dicing words here, even if I may be wasting it in some other way I can't see. I'm really trying to get my heart around "Whither karma?")

Much the same way that a mirage persists to the one hallucinating. That's part of the teaching of our path, delusion keeps us in its thrall and it is because of our attachments and delusions that we suffer. We are attached to the idea that we are separate, different, special. And so we form the ego and are deluded that "I" exists apart from you.

It only persist in the mind, in as much as any other thought or discrimination.

[Jundo]

Re: Karma

Hi,

Well, I believe in Karma deeply, and I believe in Rebirth.

Now, literal, mechanical one-on-one Rebirth may or may not be ("literal" meaning, for example, that "bad David" will be reborn in some literal fiery "hell" in some way recognizable as "this specific David"). I can leave that an open question, although I am skeptical of many traditional depictions of that. However, the type of Rebirth that I believe in is sure and certain, and visible through our Practice when the eyes become clear. When the eyes become clear, it is plain as day.

Buddhism, in all its flavors, teaches that the seemingly separate, abiding, individual self is a dream, a mirage (or, perhaps, just one way to look at things). It is much like the ring finger and middle finger thinking (if they could think) that they are not also intimately the hand, but really something separate and apart. It is like the wave which sees itself as apart from the water of the sea. These finger puppets stand for you and me!



The pirates fighting among themselves, doing bad things, is rather like stabbing your own hand! We may not feel the mutual pain, not see the connection and damage ... but it is there.

What are "we" when we drop all barriers and separations ... in the most radical and intimate sense ... between "you" "me" and the "ants" and "trees" and "stars", "you" and "me", and all being(s) throughout space and time?

All one ... all connected beyond even any separation in need of "reconnect". Thich Nhat Hanh has a lovely image of this which he likes to call "interbeing" ... another way of expressing what we are discussing ...

Imagine something as real and tangible as a piece of paper ...

If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow; and without trees, we cannot make paper. The cloud is essential for the paper to exist. If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either. So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are. “Interbeing” is a word that is not in the dictionary yet, but if we combine the prefix “inter-” with the verb “to be,” we have a new verb, inter-be. Without a cloud and the sheet of paper inter-are.

If we look into this sheet of paper even more deeply, we can see the sunshine in it. If the sunshine is not there, the forest cannot grow. In fact, nothing can grow. Even we cannot grow without sunshine. And so, we know that the sunshine is also in this sheet of paper. The paper and the sunshine inter-are. And if we continue to look, we can see the logger who cut the tree and brought it to the mill to be transformed into paper. And wesee the wheat. We now the logger cannot exist without his daily bread, and therefore the wheat that became his bread is also in this sheet of paper. And the logger’s father and mother are in it too. When we look in this way, we see that without all of these things, this sheet of paper cannot exist.

Looking even more deeply, we can see we are in it too. This is not difficult to see, because when we look at a sheet of paper, the sheet of paper is part of our perception. Your mind is in here and mine is also. So we can say that everything is in here with this sheet of paper. You cannot point out one thing that is not here-time, space, the earth, the rain, the minerals in the soil, the sunshine, the cloud, the river, the heat. Everything co-exists with this sheet of paper. That is why I think the word inter-be should be in the dictionary. “To be” is to inter-be. You cannot just be by yourself alone. You have to inter-be with every other thing. This sheet of paper is, because everything else is.

Suppose we try to return one of the elements to its source. Suppose we return the sunshine to the sun. Do you think that this sheet of paper will be possible? No, without sunshine nothing can be. And if we return the logger to his mother, then we have no sheet of paper either. The fact is that this sheet of paper is made up only of “non-paper elements.” And if we return these non-paper elements to their sources, then there can be no paper at all. Without “non-paper elements,” like mind, logger, sunshine and so on, there will be no paper. As thin as this sheet of paper is, it contains everything in the universe in it.

From: The Heart of Understanding: Commentaries on the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra

However, even such images do not capture how intimate is our wholeness and inter-penetration with the grass and stars and trees and, most especially, every creature and, even more especially, every sentient creature ... not only now, but that has ever or will ever live throughout time. It is so intimate, so "one", so "two sides, but really a single coin" ... that it is a kind of "literal, one-on-one, Jundo catches cold and David thus sneezes (an old Koan)" Rebirth. Truly, we are all the eggman, all the walrus!

(I am he and you are he and you are me and we are all together ... I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob )

I tried to capture a bit of this image in an essay this week, on how we are all a grand painting ... I am the painting, you are the painting ... we are each a painted image of painters in a painting, each of us painters now painting the painting too! :shock:

viewtopic.php?p=47402#p47402

So, perhaps I might say that I believe in a "collective rebirth". For example, we are all "in the same boat" of this planet which we share (in fact, in my view, we are all just this planet in the most intimate and whole way! :wink: ), and what we do with it ... the constructive things we do, or the damage we do, to the planet, to other creatures, other people ... has lasting effects and determines our future (or lack thereof). It is much like the strokes of the brush ... beautiful or ugly ... that we each make in contributing to that picture will have lasting effects, determine part of the results of the ever changing painting. The brushstrokes of our actions, Karma, will be seen far into the future.

And this world is intimately all worlds, the cosmos ... and that which is the root of all that ...

So, "you" are reborn CONSTANTLY ... not only in each instant by instant of your life ... but also with every new blade of grass, every breeze, every baby ... not just in the future, but in the past and now as well. The "harmful effects" of what "you" do certainly has effects in the future on "you" ...

... because the future is you, and every creature born in the future is you ... in the most personal sense. So, since this world is "you" (and me too, and all of us) ... let us be kind and gentle with each other, not muck it up! :evil:

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Here is the trailer to a little documentary that touches on something that I have discussed from time to time with friends who are scientists from some of the robot factories we have here around Tsukuba (our town, Tsukuba, is the robot design capital of Japan, nanotechnology too). Homo sapiens are already engineering our own replacements, the first time that a species has taken the future of evolution in hand by conscious choice. Let's hope the future species is smarter than ours!

But, whatever develops ... will be you and me too. 8)

Within the coming decades we will be able to create AIs with greater than human intelligence, bio-engineer our species and re-design matter through nanotechnology. How will these technologies change what it means to be human?

“The Singularity – Will we survive our technology?” is a comprehensive documentary showcasing the promises and perils of future technologies such as nanotechnology, artificial intelligence, and robotics.

Serious thinkers in the science community are wowed by the techno-utopia promises of transcending our biology, merging with our machines, and creating greater than human intelligence.

This film illustrates how these technologies may be achieved within the next two decades then questions what these technologies could mean to humanity. Not only should we be concerned with the unintended consequences of these powerful technologies, we should pause to think about what happens if these technologies actually pan out as anticipated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kJDvdEQJOew[/video]]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... JDvdEQJOew

[Kaishin]

Re: Karma

There was an interesting article recently about literal rebirth, which referenced some comments by Brad Warner. Some people take offense at Brad's non-literal opinion of rebirth, but as he says in the article/blog post "There is no 'literal you' to get 'literally reborn'."

http://buddhism.about.com/b/2011/02/01/ ... things.htm

http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com/2011/01 ... birth.html

Cheers,
Matt