My Two Cents

[JohnsonCM]

Re: My Two Cents

If Shikantaza is supposed to become part of everything I do, and if I take seriously the four vows I recite every morning, how can I help but engage?
If I'm vowing to save all numberless beings, I must go where they are and try to do something. If I'm vowing to transform all inexhaustible delusion, it cannot just mean in my own head. If I'm vowing to experience all boundless dharmas, it implies that I'll have to actually do something. If I'm vowing to embody the unsurpassable enlightened way, I'm going to have to be in some places a lot less comfortable than my zafu.
These are all vows we take that have to take place on the cushion, but also off it, and I see no more accessible or scripturally valid expression than in socially engaged Buddhism. If it's not for everyone, that's well enough. As I personally see it, helping people ans spreading the Dharma through action is precisely how the Buddha changed lives... even mine, a couple thousand years later, on the other side of the world.

Many bows.

[Ankai]

Re: My Two Cents

If Shikantaza is supposed to become part of everything I do, and if I take seriously the four vows I recite every morning, how can I help but engage?
If I'm vowing to save all numberless beings, I must go where they are and try to do something. If I'm vowing to transform all inexhaustible delusion, it cannot just mean in my own head. If I'm vowing to experience all boundless dharmas, it implies that I'll have to actually do something. If I'm vowing to embody the unsurpassable enlightened way, I'm going to have to be in some places a lot less comfortable than my zafu.
These are all vows we take that have to take place on the cushion, but also off it, and I see no more accessible or scripturally valid expression than in socially engaged Buddhism. If it's not for everyone, that's well enough. As I personally see it, helping people ans spreading the Dharma through action is precisely how the Buddha changed lives... even mine, a couple thousand years later, on the other side of the world.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: My Two Cents

...So much push back. So much talk of "desire" to do good, and "attachment" to the idea of doing good...

In Judo, there's action and reaction. If you push someone, if their mind is not like water, Mizu No Kokoro, without thinking, they push back. I would just get a few members together, start doing and tell the rest of us the story. A good example could inspire others to do something similar.

...it is a question of whether our practice is deep enough to encompass this as well....

This is what I meant with the A- and B-team. We don't need an "elite" that considers their practice "deeper". I believe an enlightened person does good, automatically, without thinking, without great efforts, without trying to. This is what is means to be enlightened, if my understanding is correct. An enlightened person doesn't need the precepts. He knows the path without the map.

...Again, it is also needs to be reiterated that IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN A SANGHA SANCTIONED OUTREACH PROGRAM OR GROUP PROJECT, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO!!!!!!...

Thank you. I don't think anyone opposes the idea that members get together in a sangha sanctioned project as part of their practice if they wish to. But it's important that they understand why they are participating and that members who do not want to participate don't get looked down upon.

I can tell this topic means a lot to you and that you get frustrated. I admire your energy and wish you well in this endevour! I hope these projects turn out great!

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: My Two Cents

I really think that there is room in every sangha for "all kinds". What I would hope for is that those who are more inclined to the contemplative aspects would not think any less of those who wish to be more active. The active or "engaged" need the support of our prayer just as much as support "on the line" by active hands. And I would alos hope that those who wish to be active in every aspect, every program and every venture would not think the less active disiniterested or contrary to their good works. There is a place for everyone on the tatami. There is a zafu for all of us.

Well said, thank you!
Gassho,

[JohnsonCM]

Re: My Two Cents

Chris, be careful not to misinterpret caution and disagreement for resistance and push back. From where I sit and read this, no one is saying you or others shouldn't do these activities, just that they don't want to and/or to be careful of ego when you and others do them. I don't get the sense that anyone feels forced, at all. Though that's just my perspective, which is almost certainly wrong in some respect, you might want to try looking at it from a similarly detached position. You are a very eloquent speaker for this cause, so please continue to advocate for it. But when you start making bolded statements questioning if others' practices are big enough to be similarly engaged in these actions you seem to start moving from advocate to critic. It is good that we hash these things out, so state your cause and then let it go. And then go do your thing!

I do need to heed my own warning against misinterpretation, huh? Well said Alan, as per usual. I didn't mean for the bolded bit to come off as critical, but more of a reminder that our practice includes all of life, including participating in a sangha wide initiative, including not participating in a sangha wide initiative. More of an agreement with Stephanie that this is a koan, but really only the next stanza of the Genjokoan, the koan of all life, that writes itself as we read it.

perhaps the reactions in this thread are because you are doing a lot of reminding, in your words; as opposed to putting your ideas out there and letting people decide what to do with them.

Also worth some thought. Thank you.

[Hogen]

Re: My Two Cents

Chris, be careful not to misinterpret caution and disagreement for resistance and push back. From where I sit and read this, no one is saying you or others shouldn't do these activities, just that they don't want to and/or to be careful of ego when you and others do them. I don't get the sense that anyone feels forced, at all. Though that's just my perspective, which is almost certainly wrong in some respect, you might want to try looking at it from a similarly detached position. You are a very eloquent speaker for this cause, so please continue to advocate for it. But when you start making bolded statements questioning if others' practices are big enough to be similarly engaged in these actions you seem to start moving from advocate to critic. It is good that we hash these things out, so state your cause and then let it go. And then go do your thing!

I do need to heed my own warning against misinterpretation, huh? Well said Alan, as per usual. I didn't mean for the bolded bit to come off as critical, but more of a reminder that our practice includes all of life, including participating in a sangha wide initiative, including not participating in a sangha wide initiative. More of an agreement with Stephanie that this is a koan, but really only the next stanza of the Genjokoan, the koan of all life, that writes itself as we read it.

perhaps the reactions in this thread are because you are doing a lot of reminding, in your words; as opposed to putting your ideas out there and letting people decide what to do with them.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: My Two Cents

Chris, be careful not to misinterpret caution and disagreement for resistance and push back. From where I sit and read this, no one is saying you or others shouldn't do these activities, just that they don't want to and/or to be careful of ego when you and others do them. I don't get the sense that anyone feels forced, at all. Though that's just my perspective, which is almost certainly wrong in some respect, you might want to try looking at it from a similarly detached position. You are a very eloquent speaker for this cause, so please continue to advocate for it. But when you start making bolded statements questioning if others' practices are big enough to be similarly engaged in these actions you seem to start moving from advocate to critic. It is good that we hash these things out, so state your cause and then let it go. And then go do your thing!

I do need to heed my own warning against misinterpretation, huh? Well said Alan, as per usual. I didn't mean for the bolded bit to come off as critical, but more of a reminder that our practice includes all of life, including participating in a sangha wide initiative, including not participating in a sangha wide initiative. More of an agreement with Stephanie that this is a koan, but really only the next stanza of the Genjokoan, the koan of all life, that writes itself as we read it.

[jonhinkson]

Re: My Two Cents

I am new here. Gassho. Gassho. Gassho. I almost didn't post anything because I new here. This seems to me to be a red hot coal. Maybe a day of silence regarding this topic will help coolness arise. Again, I am new. Gassho. Gassho. Gassho.

[AlanLa]

Re: My Two Cents

Chris, be careful not to misinterpret caution and disagreement for resistance and push back. From where I sit and read this, no one is saying you or others shouldn't do these activities, just that they don't want to and/or to be careful of ego when you and others do them. I don't get the sense that anyone feels forced, at all. Though that's just my perspective, which is almost certainly wrong in some respect, you might want to try looking at it from a similarly detached position. You are a very eloquent speaker for this cause, so please continue to advocate for it. But when you start making bolded statements questioning if others' practices are big enough to be similarly engaged in these actions you seem to start moving from advocate to critic. It is good that we hash these things out, so state your cause and then let it go. And then go do your thing!

[Eika]

Re: My Two Cents

Some Houses are directed toward education and have opened great universities, or academies; some are directed toward healing and so have opened hospitals, and still others devote their lives to comtemplative prayer living in the cloister, some lead parishes. We have found that some even have what we call a "mixed" life, living semi-cloistered while also having an active ministry of some sort. We know it "takes all kinds"!!!

Seishin Kyrill

Well said.

There is no one-size-fits-all answer here anymore than there are single answers for other big questions regarding How We Live Our Lives (sorry, we've been reading lots of A. A. Milne in the house lately).

Some folks need a kick in the butt, some need a hug, some need to get off their lazy rear-ends, some need a break. We all need something. We all give something. I've no problems with people living the Path in ways that are different than I might--so long as it is "helpful and healthful" to themselves and others.

Being a bible-belter I have issues with anything that smacks of evangelism or proselytizing. That's my baggage and I don't presume that others have the same issues.

Right livelihood is a related topic. Some of the sangha already live most hours of the day in occupations that require copious amounts of generosity and patience. If they do so with a Practice Mind, it would be unfair to ask more of them. Some have other life situations that ask similar things of them. Such a wide range of experiences here at treeleaf means that there will be many variations on our practice.

I support each person's practice efforts so long as they are not creating problems for themselves and others. Here's to the many leaves that make up our tree.

Gassho,
Eika

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: My Two Cents

In my world the orders of religious monks and nuns have usually been formed around what we call their apostolate or charism,...what they do. Even within my own Benedictine Order there are different apostolates. Some Houses are directed toward education and have opened great universities, or academies; some are directed toward healing and so have opened hospitals, and still others devote their lives to comtemplative prayer living in the cloister, some lead parishes. We have found that some even have what we call a "mixed" life, living semi-cloistered while also having an active ministry of some sort. We know it "takes all kinds"!!! In my monastic career I think that I have done just about all of these forms at one time or another, now finally (so I think!) to live the eremitic life of solitude and comtemplation.

I really think that there is room in every sangha for "all kinds". What I would hope for is that those who are more inclined to the contemplative aspects would not think any less of those who wish to be more active. The active or "engaged" need the support of our prayer just as much as support "on the line" by active hands. And I would alos hope that those who wish to be active in every aspect, every program and every venture would not think the less active disiniterested or contrary to their good works. There is a place for everyone on the tatami. There is a zafu for all of us.

That's my hapenny..GAssho

Seishin Kyrill

[JohnsonCM]

Re: My Two Cents

I think that it is important to remember that no one said it was mandatory.

It would simply be a project that everyone who wanted to within the sangha could get behind, hopefully while making the Teachings more visible.

So much push back. So much talk of "desire" to do good, and "attachment" to the idea of doing good. We came to this practice because it spoke to us. It spoke to us in the language of Zen and the Mahayana. It spoke with the voice of all those ancestors who walked dirty roads to bring the dharma to those who were ready to accept it. It spoke to us with the mouth of the monk who gave his robe away to the man who tried to rob his hermitage.

Why is there such tension? Why is there such resistance to this idea? Why are people trying to make this into an issue about whether or not we need to do something like this? Ask the hungry man, or the freezing woman, or the child who's parents died of AIDS, if we need to do something like this. This isn't a question of "Does something like this fit into our practice" it is a question of whether our practice is deep enough to encompass this as well. Again, it is also needs to be reiterated that IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN A SANGHA SANCTIONED OUTREACH PROGRAM OR GROUP PROJECT, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO!!!!!! This was never mandatory, and if it were, it would not be worthy of those who took the Bodhisattva Vows.

[chicanobudista]

Re: My Two Cents

This discussion mirrors many discussions that go on in many local churches, synagogues, mosques and sanghas. So I am not surprised at all the emotions and thoughts around community involvement. Personally, as long as we don't approach it as an either/or to our practice, the kids will be alright. :wink:

Some will join and act collectively. Some will do their own thing. Same thing. Same practice.

We must remember that we Buddhist are not strangers to community involvement. This is one of the major examples at least in Asia. http://tw.tzuchi.org/en/

[AlanLa]

Re: My Two Cents

So much for staying in the background, like I really could :roll:

I agree that it is what you do that matters, so I encourage people to go and (mindfully) do, instead of talking about doing, yet we are spending lots of time talking about doing on various threads around here lately. All that talking is fine, even good, and whatever happens is whatever happens. Whatever people learn from all this talking and (hopefully at some point) doing, is also great. I just find it all fascinating. I think I've designated my role in all this to be the pebble thrower in the form of reflection questions, so here are some more.

What is it with this desire to do more? Who are we doing more for? The people being served in some way? Ourselves? Treeleaf? Some combination of all these?

Why does socially engaged Buddhism need to be identified as such? Why does the Treeleaf sangha need to be identified with any socially engaged Buddhist action? How does such an identification add to or take away from any action?

Keishin made a point that I want to emphasize. Every action we take here on Treeleaf is a socially engaged Buddhist action. We are a public forum; not everyone can join, but because we are on the Internet everyone can see what we do, how we behave. So just by being present in this sangha, by participating in the threads, you are engaging in a public act of Buddhism. In that sense, we are probably the most socially engaged sangha in the world. But why stop there? People want to do more, and that might be okay.

As for me, I do more all the time. I just volunteered one organization I am in for another project last week, and I am about to get some students involved in a service-learning project next week, and the next opportunity that comes up along similar lines I will probably get involved to some extent with that also. But I don't expect to ever publicly identify any of my actions with Treeleaf or even as a valuable aspect of my Buddhist practice. I feel no need, nor do I see any benefit to me or those served or the sangha or to the actions I take with others. If anything, it seems a distraction.

All that being said, by all means, people should be encouraged to go out and act in a way that brings benefit to their communities. Being a good role model is one of the most powerful ways to influence others (seriously, I do research on this stuff). But as soon as you start adding something to your good actions you run the risk of creating separation between yourself and that good action. Even if your motives are pure, the perception of others may become tainted, thus potentially thwarting that good action born from your pure intent. So I just urge people to be mindful out there.

[Jundo]

Re: My Two Cents

I think this whole discussion brings up some interesting aspects about Treeleaf. Some people truly relate to this place as a Zen community, a sangha, and to some people it is just a chat forum and sounding board.

I am going to say something as strong and direct as anything I have ever said here.

I feel that the latter group of people should leave here. This is a Sangha, a community for mutual support in Zen Practice and teaching, and a place of actual Practice ... the heart of which is Zazen (both seated Zazen and Zazen in a wider meaning).

I am very sincere about this.

Gassho, Jundo