my very limited take on two important questions

[Risho]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Yeah I have to agree that both suicide and having children could be both selfless and selfish, depending on one's intent. For instance, my parents were very selfless; I am, after all, God's gift to the world. :mrgreen: mwahahahah

Actually though I find it very hard to find an example of where committing suicide would be selfless. I guess there are, but when I think of someone killing themselves out of despair or depression, I really do think that is a very selfish act. It does have ramifications on others, and no one is ever alone.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Well, we don't know for a fact that committing suicide wouldn't give someone peace. I don't know that at all.

Is the idea that suicide is selfish because of how it would affect other people? I'd be interested to hear what other's reactions would be to hearing of a suicide.

My first thought would be, "Oh my God, what kind of pain must they have been in to do such a thing?"

Would the first thoughts of someone who believes suicide is selfish be, "Oh my God, how could they do this to me?"

Which of those responses sounds selfish to you?

Gassho,
Dosho

That depends on where you stand, I think. What would the thoughts be of a mother of four upon learning of the suicide of her husband, especially if she stayed home with the children and he was the only source of income? Sure you are sad and distraught and torn to pieces at the loss of someone you loved dearly, but you are now also the sole provider and care taker of four innocent lives that still need food, water, shelter, clothing, medical care, school clothes, and education, etc. You are correct, though, that we don't know for sure if death brings peace in any form, but that's the kicker isn't it? It is our delusions that what ever is after this life must be better than what is going on now, and our attachment to the idea that death brings a release from problems, sorrow and suffering. This is why I said before that a person who wants to commit suicide in order to escape suffering is confused. You can never escape suffering in this world, while at the same time becoming free from suffering by an understanding of the dharma.

So is it selfish? I think so, when you leave those who depend on you to fend for themselves so that you can satisfy the delusion you have of attaining peace through your own death.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Ahhh yes, the uncertainty of the afterlife....

[Dosho]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

That depends on where you stand, I think. What would the thoughts be of a mother of four upon learning of the suicide of her husband, especially if she stayed home with the children and he was the only source of income? Sure you are sad and distraught and torn to pieces at the loss of someone you loved dearly, but you are now also the sole provider and care taker of four innocent lives that still need food, water, shelter, clothing, medical care, school clothes, and education, etc. You are correct, though, that we don't know for sure if death brings peace in any form, but that's the kicker isn't it? It is our delusions that what ever is after this life must be better than what is going on now, and our attachment to the idea that death brings a release from problems, sorrow and suffering. This is why I said before that a person who wants to commit suicide in order to escape suffering is confused. You can never escape suffering in this world, while at the same time becoming free from suffering by an understanding of the dharma.

Well, I am a father of two boys and currently my wife is our only source of income. If my wife were to commit suicide, I believe my first thought would be compassion: What pain caused her to kill herself? In your scenario, should my first thought be anger or resentment? (i.e. Why did she do that to me/them?) That doesn't make much sense to me. Suicide is an irrational act that in most cases comes from an underlying mental illness. If you are able to make a balanced evaluation of your life, taking into account all the consequences of your actions, and come to a rational decision about your future...chances are you aren't suicidal. To rationalize the behavior of an irrational person is impossible and is often a reaction to our inability to control the universe. They might have killed themselves because the guy in the fedora with the purple lunchbox told them to do it. Does rational thought come into play there? I don't think so.

So is it selfish? I think so, when you leave those who depend on you to fend for themselves so that you can satisfy the delusion you have of attaining peace through your own death.

A delusion is a belief that can be proven to be false. Believing that suicide will relieve suffering is not a delusion since, as far as I know, no one has come back to tell us about it. That's not to say that I think it will relieve anyone's suffering...I don't. But assuming that it won't is to be stuck in a religious view that assumes there are such things as heaven and hell. Some call that a delusion! And to try to reconcile our views of life and death with those who chose to end it will only create more suffering.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Rich]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Born to live

[JohnsonCM]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

That depends on where you stand, I think. What would the thoughts be of a mother of four upon learning of the suicide of her husband, especially if she stayed home with the children and he was the only source of income? Sure you are sad and distraught and torn to pieces at the loss of someone you loved dearly, but you are now also the sole provider and care taker of four innocent lives that still need food, water, shelter, clothing, medical care, school clothes, and education, etc. You are correct, though, that we don't know for sure if death brings peace in any form, but that's the kicker isn't it? It is our delusions that what ever is after this life must be better than what is going on now, and our attachment to the idea that death brings a release from problems, sorrow and suffering. This is why I said before that a person who wants to commit suicide in order to escape suffering is confused. You can never escape suffering in this world, while at the same time becoming free from suffering by an understanding of the dharma.

Well, I am a father of two boys and currently my wife is our only source of income. If my wife were to commit suicide, I believe my first thought would be compassion: What pain caused her to kill herself? In your scenario, should my first thought be anger or resentment? (i.e. Why did she do that to me/them?) That doesn't make much sense to me. Suicide is an irrational act that in most cases comes from an underlying mental illness. If you are able to make a balanced evaluation of your life, taking into account all the consequences of your actions, and come to a rational decision about your future...chances are you aren't suicidal. To rationalize the behavior of an irrational person is impossible and is often a reaction to our inability to control the universe. They might have killed themselves because the guy in the fedora with the purple lunchbox told them to do it. Does rational thought come into play there? I don't think so.

So is it selfish? I think so, when you leave those who depend on you to fend for themselves so that you can satisfy the delusion you have of attaining peace through your own death.

A delusion is a belief that can be proven to be false. Believing that suicide will relieve suffering is not a delusion since, as far as I know, no one has come back to tell us about it. That's not to say that I think it will relieve anyone's suffering...I don't. But assuming that it won't is to be stuck in a religious view that assumes there are such things as heaven and hell. Some call that a delusion! And to try to reconcile our views of life and death with those who chose to end it will only create more suffering.

Gassho,
Dosho

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that the spouse of a person who commits suicide would simply look at their loved one and say, "You bastard!" or something. Of course the first thought is sorrow and pain at loosing a loved one, questions without answers - Why did they do it? Why didn't they say something? What could I have done differently to have helped or listened? But the first thought isn't the only thought, nor is it the last thought. And we aren't really talking about the other person's reaction though, we are talking about whether the act was "self"ish or not. From the point of view of the person who is actually committing suicide, do you think that they are concerned with what their death will mean to those they leave behind? I want to make sure that you understand that I am not talking so much about the emotional aspect of it, though for those left behind it is imposible to separate, I am talking about whether the person who is committing suicide is thinking of anyone other than themselves. As I said before, I personally contemplated it. So I can speak from my own experience that I was only concerned with ending the emotional pain that I felt, and infact began to believe that my family would be better off, but that was a justification technique.

Another definition of delusion is an unfounded opinion or idea. If looked at in this context, assuming that death releases a person from suffering is a delusion. Assuming it won't is a delusion, too. Assuming it won't or will isn't getting stuck in a religious view, but it is assuming that we have any idea whatsoever of what comes after death in this world. To say it will could mean that there is a perfect heaven or nirvana where there is no suffering, or it might mean that the essence of what makes us who we are simply ceases to be entirely. Either way it would be a form of release. To say it won't might mean there is a hell, or maybe that there is a state after this life that is exactly like this life with all its attendent joys and miseries. There need not be a religious point to it.

And one last thing, I said that it is usually selfish. Most people who commit suicide do so to stop the pain they feel physically or emotionally. This is completely a stand point of how their perception of life affects THEM. The self. But there are also people who commit suicide for selfless reasons. Don't forget that suicide is any act a person takes willingly that results in their own death, with the foreknowlege that death is the most likely outcome. So a soldier who leaps on a grenade in order to save his platoon, a man who runs into the street to hurl a child out of the way of a speeding truck, knowing he won't be able to get clear himself, the wounded person who forces his companions to leave him in the woods in order to move faster so that they have a chance of finding help when he would only slow them down; these are all examples of selfless suicide. We also call them acts of heroism and bravery, but the result is still the same. The motive is what is different. Not all suicides can be attributed to mental illness either. Over 150,000 farmers in Inda have committed suicide over the past decade because of overiding debt.

And of course there's always the fedora wearing, purple lunchbox toting hallucination - but those are few and far between.

[Dosho]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Christopher,

It seems clear that you have made up your mind on this issue, so I won't attempt to persuade you any further. I had not ever heard about the problems of suicide in India and it is quite shocking. Stories like that should be widely known but sadly are not. Thank you for bringing that to our attention!

Gassho,
Dosho

[JohnsonCM]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Jundo may be more familiar with the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aokigahara

But here is another not too well known story outside of Japan.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Christopher,

It seems clear that you have made up your mind on this issue, so I won't attempt to persuade you any further. I had not ever heard about the problems of suicide in India and it is quite shocking. Stories like that should be widely known but sadly are not. Thank you for bringing that to our attention!

Gassho,
Dosho

Don't mistake me here, this is my opinion and I am more than willing to hear others. All I can do is speak from my own experience and try to see it from a place of clarity. Any and all other thoughts are welcome.

[Jundo]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Let me offer this ...

Buddhist teachings tend to point to the real "wrongdoer" in life as human "greed, anger and ignorance", and in that sense, both the person who is the target of violence AND the person who does violence are "victims". So, for example, even a violent murderer, rapist or child molester is acting so because of the inner rage, excess desire, dissatisfaction, divisive thoughts within them, all holes they feel the need to fill through their harmful actions. Everyone is a victim of greed, anger and ignorance.

THAT, BY THE WAY, does not necessarily excuse or forgive the person's volitional conduct ... and there are debts that have to be paid, either in society (we may understand that a child molester is acting due to his own past suffering, yet society is perfectly right in removing such a person from being able to do further harm to others, either through prison or other effective means, and seeking otherwise that the debt be paid) or the universe itself (if one believe's in literal Karma for volitional acts, then the debt will be paid in future lives and hells). Thus, many Nazis in WWII were "victims" of their inner anger, bigotry, racism, hunger for power, and perhaps own poor childhoods ... yet society was justified in stopping and punishing them.

But, we must all recognize that we --all-- have the inner POTENTIAL for the best and worst of human behavior within us, under the right (or wrong) conditions. "There but for the grace of Buddha go I". Furthermore, we are all so interconnected that, in a very real sense, I am ultimately you and you are me. Thus, I feel that Buddhists should take actions necessary to prevent and punish wrongdoing, but always (or as we humanly can ... for it is hard to forgive some things) without thoughts of revenge or anger. It is simply necessary medicine to keep society safe.

Why do I mention all that?

Well, I feel it is not right to really debate whether the person who commits suicide is acting selfishly or not selfishly, is the wrongdoer or not. The real "culprit" is the ignorance, imprisoning emotions and thoughts within the person that drives them to do so. The real criminal is the trickster "self" within the person and its lack of liberation from itself and dissatisfaction with life.

Thus, I feel that suicide due to deep depression, self-loathing, loss of a "reason to live" is almost always a waste, and is due to unnecessary harmful thoughts and emotions that need not occur in this life. IF ONLY the person could know the liberation brought by Buddhist Practice, suicide would be out of the question. Freedom can be known in this life, and this life lived with a great Joy and Peace, even in times of sadness and fear and loss and the like. The real "devil" is our own destructive emotions and black thoughts which rob us of experiencing that.

By the way, the foregoing point does not apply to certain kinds of "suicide", e.g., euthanasia in the face of a truly painful and incurable physical condition may be justified at some point. Also, the Buddha himself, in past lives as a Bodhisattva (much like the soldier who jumps on a grenade, etc.), is said to have engaged in various "suicides" purely for altruistic reasons, in service to others. For example, the famous Jataka tale of the "Hungry Tigress"

[The Buddha, in an earlier life as a Bodhisattva before he was yet the "Buddha"] encountered a tigress who was starving and emaciated from giving birth With no food in sight, the bodhisattva, out of infinite compassion, offered his body as food to the tigress, selflessly forfeiting his own life.

Gassho, J

PS - This is a good time to mention the famous story and picture of Ven.Thich Quang Duc, who set himself on fire on a busy Saigon street in 1963 to protest the persecution of Buddhists by the then South Vietnamese government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc

On my recent trip to Vietnam, I found that some there and elsewhere consider him a great hero. Other Buddhists around the world (I lean this way) think that any form of suicide as merely a political statement is not in keeping with the Precept on Preserving Life. This issue too is not "black and white", but I lean against it.

[Ankai]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

On my recent trip to Vietnam, I found that some there and elsewhere consider him a great hero. Other Buddhists around the world (I lean this way) think that any form of suicide as merely a political statement is not in keeping with the Precept on Preserving Life. This issue too is not "black and white", but I lean against it.

I personally think Duc self-immolated as a protest against the horror of war and the abuse of other humans... not as simple politics, and that whatever the actual outcome, his one and only motive was to save lives.
I wouldn't recommend his path, but here it is 2010, and we remember this simple monk. Maybe his gesture was futile. His thinking may have been faulty, to some, but I think his heart... his unburnable heart, which still exists, was in the exact right place.
I recently saw the statue they've erected of him. I was moved to real tears.

[Geika]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

The article about Ven.Thich Quang Duc moved me and raised some interesting contradictions in my mind, causing me to taste the sweetness of deciding that I didn't have to pick a side.

[Dosho]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

I very much need to let this go, but I will leave after saying how I look at suicide without any intent to convince anyone of anything.

If someone had an inoperable brain tumor that caused their death, would anyone ever refer to it as selfish? I can think of only one instance: A family member who is so upset by the loss that they ask either God or no one in particular, "Why did they do this to me?" A natural reaction to loss, of course. But after the initial shock, would anyone call their death selfish? I don't believe so.

In my mind, someone who commits suicide may not have had any more choice in the matter than the cancer patient and, in the latter case, there is a tumor that can be seen, examined, and made "real" to anyone who would wish to see it. But, generally, the family takes the doctor's word that something in their head led to the cancer patient's death.

When someone commits suicide, there is no tumor to point to and often no evidence of any kind that something in their head led to their death. A family member may ask, "Why did they do this to me?" and the doctor may have nothing to point to as a cause because no scan or autopsy would show evidence of every type of mental illness. In many cases, all the family has as evidence is a self inflicted wound.

In my mind, to refer to suicide as selfish is the same as saying someone with a brain tumor was selfish. In both cases the patient may have had absolutely no choice in the matter and, without a tumor or other identifying evidence, the family will never know for certain why their loved one is gone. To me, labelling such an act as selfish is at least the cause of much suffering and at most dead wrong.

Maybe that's an odd way of looking at it, but it is how I look at it.

That's enough...I will now shut up and go sit.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Shonin]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Dosho, I see your point. And frankly, i think it's kinda sad when someone's first reaction to such a tragic loss is how selfish the deceased were. A few months before I moved back to NC a former manager of mine passed on in such a fashion, and i was so completely shocked to hear how most of my co-workers acted. By the second day i said something not so friendly to the group of them.Always hurts my heart when others speak ill of someone who committed suicide.

[Shohei]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Hiyas
I lived a long time (seemingly eons) with a suicidal person in my life. She came and went and each time was a plea for help that was met with various answers (I'll give my own here in a few more lines). The thing is after countless visits to the psych ward on at the hospital here I really wanted to give this person a wake up call some how (and a smack up-side the head!). at the time i was visiting the hospital I had just lost my brother and a close friend was diagnosed with cancer and was fighting for his life.

I was angry with her for, in my limited view then and even now, for being selfish. I told her so and explained my point view. At times I wanted to just say F#$% it and never look back. I did not understand she was suffering from a disease and this was a symptom.

Anywho, Her many attempts were serious, but she had people on close watch quick to get her. I wont share her motivations as they, well are not important in this discussion but they are very very good ones! I got over myself and my selfishness and listened to her. I grew to have a better handle on things and after much work on her part she "got better". The thing she explained that helped me most was that the mind set she was in, gave her a perspective as death as an acceptable way to end her suffering(which, was as real for her as a branding iron, on hide).

Later this person met up with and began to fall back into some old habits with a wonderfully bright person...almost her lost twin she still says.. who, she discovered one morning, had successfully committed suicide. She to this day apologizes for the suffering she put us through, I still apologize for my lack of understanding and thank her for the lessons she shared with me and that I have her in my life today.

Another person Ive known since I was a kid successfully after YEARS of trying hung himself. His mom said, through tears, she was so sad to see him go, but glad he was no longer suffering, and the waiting was over. He had this mindset since a young boy, despite all types of attempts to help him, he was 36.

Suicide is killing. In the act of committing suicide do one wakes up from a dream or one goes deeper into it? The real question is who does it, who commits suicide? In that light you may start to realize that the self is busy trying to get rid of itself. You so don't wake up basically. And, at the same time, one should abstain from judging a person that committed suicide. Just bow, sing and laugh and cry.

Gassho



Shohei