my very limited take on two important questions

[Taigu]

Having received two questions this beautiful sunday morning...

1.Why would zen (or Buddhism in general) opppose suicide? There is no ethical problem created by waking up from a dream, so how is dying to the illusory world around us any different than that?

2. If this world is illusion and attachments, then isn't having a child akin to feeding someone a mind-clouding drug? We are facilitating a mind being trapped in the world of Mara's temptations from which it must work to escape.

I made two quick answers. Not the best but the answers that are true to me:

Suicide is killing. In the act of commiting suicide do one wakes up from a dream or one goes deeper into it? The real question is who does it, who commits suicide? In that light you may start to realize that the self is busy trying to get rid of itself. You so don't wake up basically. And, at the same time, one should abstain from judging a person that committed suicide. Just bow, sing and laugh and cry.

And I cannot share your vision of life, a big Mara thing, filled with illusion. The world is not only this :it is this and that. Delusion and awakening, both at the same time. What you see out there is far too pessimistic and has more to do with primitive images of HInduism that Buddhism as Dogen practised and understood it. Maybe you could do with reading, chewing and chewing again a chapter of Shobogenzo like One Bright Pearl or The sutra of Mountains and rivers.

So having a child is not drug dealing. It is to give to as it isness the possiblility to awake (manifest) within this dream-reality spin.


gassho


Taigu

[Earthling]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

In the act of commiting suicide do one wakes up from a dream or one goes deeper into it? The real question is who does it, who commits suicide? In that light you may start to realize that the self is busy trying to get rid of itself. You so don't wake up basically.

Taigu, thank you. Imperfect answer or no, your answers-- particularly that first one-- speaks to me-- touches me actually. Some years ago I went through a time of suicidal depression (which I have since worked my way out of, thankfully). There is a strange kind of pain, an intensity of doubt, and I think your answer here really expresses what that pain is like. It is truly a living hell. Again, thank you.

_()_
josh

[Jundo]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

The fellow, who is not from our little Sangha, wrote me the same two questions. I wrote him the following without having looked closely at Taigu's comments, and I will post them here before doing so, but I have a hunch that Taigu and I will be of the same heart on these ...

- On suicide ... this life may be a dream, or not a dream, but even if a dream, it is "our dream", this dream to be lived, a dream that we were born to dream and had best get on with! Dogen called this reality a "Dream within a Dream" ... a dream so dreamy that it is real as real can be. Now, whether you choose to make it a dream of peace and liberation through your words, thoughts and acts ... or a nightmare of greed, anger and ignorance ... is up to you.

Life is a treasure, sacred ... why would one wish to snuff it out? To find liberation? Why not find that right here ... in this life, where liberation can be lived.

- On children ... this world can be "illusions and attachments", or lived free of "illusions and attachments" even amid this messy world. Why not simply (to quote Crosby, Stills and Nash), teach our children well? One can live this life, in this dreamy world, without being Mara's prisoner.

Those are my answers. Do you think the best way is to escape this world by never being born or by dying early? Or do you feel that the best way might be to be born in this world, live and eventually die ... all while tasting that free of coming and going, birth and death (that's my view). It is kind of having one's cake and eating it too!

Gassho, Jundo

[Rich]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

1.Why would zen (or Buddhism in general) opppose suicide? There is no ethical problem created by waking up from a dream, so how is dying to the illusory world around us any different than that?

2. If this world is illusion and attachments, then isn't having a child akin to feeding someone a mind-clouding drug? We are facilitating a mind being trapped in the world of Mara's temptations from which it must work to escape.

Delusions are endless, we vow to cut thru them all.

Buddhists and non buddhists oppose suicide because even though being lost in the dream or delusions can be extremely painful with much suffering this state of mind can be 'worked out of' as josh above states. Cutting thru delusions is the job of living and we are living so get to work. Just sitting practice is the actualization of life itself and while we don't deny the 'illusory world' we just keep coming back to the space around and between it. In that sense 'dying to the illusory world around us' is happening all the time. Killing the body is a one sided finite solution to life that is totally anti life but there are situations (terminal illness, close to death) where it might be right and no judgement is required. But to see relatively healthy people commit suicide is very sad.

[Seiryu]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

1.Why would zen (or Buddhism in general) opppose suicide? There is no ethical problem created by waking up from a dream, so how is dying to the illusory world around us any different than that?

2. If this world is illusion and attachments, then isn't having a child akin to feeding someone a mind-clouding drug? We are facilitating a mind being trapped in the world of Mara's temptations from which it must work to escape.

Here are my answers, (Just wanted to give it a shot)

1. Because the world itself isn't illusory, only our perceptions of it our illusory. Only through living this life and seeing pass the illusions of the world can we 'wake up' to it. Besides suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

2. It is not so much an escape as it is an acceptance of. And it is in this acceptance of, that we escape the world of Mara's temptations. but the escape isn't about going somewhere, or leaving, but just being and understanding the fundamental nature of things. Having a child is a beautiful thing. And if one can see through the illusions and attachments then every moment is beautiful.

Gassho

Rafael

[TrevorMcmanis]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

life is not nourishing any way to some beings.just because we can that their maybe some nourishment doesnt mean that it exists in their own path,

[Jundo]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

It may also be good to mention some traditional views on these subjects.

Were sentient beings born to work through their past evil Karma on the long road to Buddhahood, it would be wrong (and itself the creation of evil Karma) to deprive them of that chance. There is much written on the subject of Buddhism and suicide, here is a small taste ...

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BPRJkD1_3boJ:www.kmspks.org/download/suicide.doc+buddhism+and+suicide&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk

http://www.religionfacts.com/euthanasia/buddhism.htm

Personally, I happen to support assisted suicide in the case of extreme physical suffering, but it is not a black-white issue.

Also worth mentioning is that, in centuries past, infanticide (especially of females) was much more common in Asia, and abortion was and remains common (as does, unfortunately, female infanticide in some places). Buddhism in China and Japan seem to have come to terms with that, and the societal understanding and accompanying Buddhist teachings became that one is not killing a fetus or child (a newborn was not yet seen as fully human), but merely temporarily returning them to the unborn world for a later reappearance ... thus not quite "killing". A fascinating book on abortion, infanticide and Buddhism in Japan ...

http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Life-Abortion-Buddhism-Japan/dp/0691029652/ref=tmm_pap_title_0]

We have also had reading in our Precepts study forum on Abortion and Buddhism ...

http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spip.php?article2475

http://www.fnsa.org/fall98/tsomo1.html

Gassho, Jundo

[Keishin]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Hellos to all posting here

I do not have an opinion with regard to suicide

That is I can equally see both sides.

I can equally see both sides of the situation regarding abortion. The result is I have no opinion: I am able to fully support, or completely refute either position taken.

With regard to capital punishment, I think the prisoner should decide for themself: life imprisonment, or death penalty. I believe the prisoner should have a year (or some time period) to consider/ reconsider death penalty (a life sentence is a long time).

These are my thoughts now. These have been my thoughts for some time now. It doesn't mean they might not change; but I don't think so: I would not want someone else deciding for me: I do not want to decide for someone else.

[Risho]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

It may also be good to mention some traditional views on these subjects.

Were sentient beings born to work through their past evil Karma on the long road to Buddhahood, it would be wrong (and itself the creation of evil Karma) to deprive them of that chance. There is much written on the subject of Buddhism and suicide, here is a small taste ...

I find this viewpoint particularly inspirational in difficult times. I love the quote from Bodhidharma

When those who search for the Path suffer encounter adversity, they should think to themselves "In countless ages gone by, I've turned from the essential to the trivial and wandered through all manner of existence, often angry without cause and guilty of many transgressions. Now though I do no wrong I'm punished by my past. Neither gods nor men can see when an evil deed will bear its fruit. I accept it with an open heart and without a complaint of injustice." The sutras say, "When you meet with adversity don't be upset, because it makes sense." With such understanding you are in harmony with reason. And by suffering injustice, you enter the Path.

Obviously that comes from a great zen master, from a perspective of deep equanimity with life. I just always find this perspective very, very refreshing. It's selfless.

Suicide (not euthanasia), is very selfish. It impacts not just you but those around you. I believe this life is a gift, and suicide is the ultimate rejection of that gift in addition to increasing the suffering of those who have to deal with the ramifications of a sudden and violent loss of life.

I think raising children is very selfless, perhaps one of the most selfless acts that can be done because one must set aside their "self" in order to make the child a priority and be raised properly. On an aside, I think marriage is very sacrificial as well. That's one of the reasons it is sacred in Christianity. The sacrifice of marriage (losing yourself in the bond with one's spouse) is very selfless.

There will always be evil in this world, but it is our duty ( I believe) to practice our practice. Each one of us striving for balance, amid the chaos, if we are fortunate to find a path that allows us to do so. And like all the gifts we receive, this Dharma is very sacred as well. (although it is not always easy to practice).

Gassho,

Cyril

[JohnsonCM]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

The person who asked those questions sounds, to me, to be searching for something. A reason to it all, perhaps. The answers I have for those two situations come from experience, both as a parent and a person who, at one time, contemplated suicide.

For the suicide question, I once thought seriously about it myself, having had an awful lot of trouble with an anxiety and depressive disorder. I can understand that some circumstances are so hard on a person that they might think about it. For me, my wife was going to leave me because of my problems; I was constantly anxious and depressed, abusing alcohol regularly. These things led me to consider it as a solution. But, I came to realize that there was no problem, that what was happening was that I was confused. Perhaps life is a dream, perhaps it is not, perhaps sometimes it is a nightmare, but whatever it is, it is there to be lived / dreamt. If life is a dream and one wishes to “wake up” from it, then I encourage them to do so. That having been said, much as there are many paths up many mountains to reach the same elevation, is death the only way to accomplish that? Certainly not, else the Buddha would not have lived and preached and taught. So, no, there is no ethical problem created by waking up from a dream, but that doesn’t mean you have to kill yourself to do it. For me, waking up meant seeking help. It meant taking the medications prescribed for me (I had problems complying with that for a while), it meant seeing the psychiatrist, but most of all it meant unraveling my “self” from the delusions that I could handle things by my “self”, that alcohol was a viable means of coping, that since it was MY mind, I was in charge. It meant that I had to step away from the truths that I THOUGHT I knew, and the self image I had created, in order to see that what I was really doing was fooling myself and lying to myself into believing that I could change what was, simply because I didn’t like it.

When a person kills themselves, they deprive all beings of their presence. The Precept says to refrain from taking life, because that life does not belong to us, that life belongs to everyone and no one. What would have happened had Ghandi killed himself? Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.? Marie Curie? My son’s fifth grade teacher? Does this mean that we should live simply because of what we can do for others? No. There is a simple joy in waking up and seeing the sun. There is a profound sense of completeness in walking through the snow to your car. The bittersweet memories we have of loved ones who have passed. This is life, and though it is far from happy and joyful all the time, even the bad times can be appreciated for their complete “suchness” if you stop focusing on how it affects your “self” and see it as another facet in the many sided jewel of living. My mistake was feeding the idea of my “self” until I grew to believe that I was not subject to these conditions of life; that I was special or separate from them, and the constant sensation of my “self” butting up against the reality of life was the source of the emotional pain I felt. It wasn’t until I began to let this idea of “self” go, that I found the simple joy in everyday, rain or shine, happy or hurtful.

As for children. That’s what we do as humans. We have kids. We continue the species, because we are made to, and then we love and nurture our children as best we can. But should my idea of life be the deciding factor in whether or not I have children? I don’t think that I could justify that. If I woke up miserable every day, should I take that and use it to justify depriving someone of existence, an existence that might be full of joy and laughter, just because I didn’t experience that myself? Do I have that right?

That does not mean, however, that I don’t understand abortion. I can understand being a parent and feeling that you cannot give them what they need, so much so that bringing that child into the world might become an act of cruelty, just as much as having the child and asking its mother to simply give him or her away to a complete stranger would be. Or the cruelty of causing a person in constant and extreme pain to continue to exist, knowing that they will be in that pain until they pass away, because I might believe that taking a life is wrong.

In the end, both are personal choices. However, they are choices that should be made with a clear mind, as clear of delusions and attachments and catering to the “self” as they can be. They are choices that should be made knowing and understanding the effect that they will have, not just on themselves, and that the person making those choices understands that they are simply a few of the many, many choices that are out there.

My personal take is that a person who believes that killing themselves or not having children as a public service is a good thing, take a step back and try to think of the situation in a way that does not facilitate grabbing onto the first and easiest solution. Looking at life through a filter made from your own desires is like trying to look through a dirty window. Clean it off first, then look again.

[Eika]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

A question often tells more than it asks.

Life is no problem, it's the suffering that some people cannot handle. Life and suffering are not two and not one. They are not the same but cannot be separated. So, often questions about life and death are really questions about suffering--questions that the Buddha provided answers/practices for.

Our practice is a brave one, I think, because it refuses to look away or run from our suffering. We sit and sit and sit with it till we are OK with life.

Beyond that, I have no coherent thoughts that would be of any help to someone concerned about suicide. I wish I did.

Gassho,
Eika

[Keishin]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Hellos to those posting here

The question of suicide came up one time and Brad's response was that even though a person may think that suicide will end suffering (specifically their own) Suffering is not diminished or ended, it is now experienced by others: all those associated with the person in various capacities: the world doesn't have less suffering in it, it is just spread out over more people.

Someday I may find myself in an unforeseen situation/circumstance
I don't know what I may decide is best
I cannot decide what is best for another

There are all manners and degrees of everything: helps and hindrances
Hard to know which is what sometimes

A college friend had a half-sibling who killed himself his job had him driving long distances across country
He left a wife and child behind
Strange items were found in the trunk of his car after: plastic bags with different kinds of hair...
Police were involved...some things are ugly. Ugly no matter how you look at it.
If I was a serial killer let's say...and I couldn't stop myself and I wanted to protect others
Killing myself may be a kindness to all beings...
There was no conclusion for what was found in his trunk.

All I know is that speculation has nothing to do with the experience of another
I can not tell someone else what they should do.
After it is done, I cannot second guess what would have been better
Only my own feet in my own shoes can go their own way even if the way is unknown/unknowable
I cannot know in advance what is a fitting and true action: in that moment only

[Dosho]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Suicide (not euthanasia), is very selfish. It impacts not just you but those around you. I believe this life is a gift, and suicide is the ultimate rejection of that gift in addition to increasing the suffering of those who have to deal with the ramifications of a sudden and violent loss of life.

I think raising children is very selfless, perhaps one of the most selfless acts that can be done because one must set aside their "self" in order to make the child a priority and be raised properly. On an aside, I think marriage is very sacrificial as well. That's one of the reasons it is sacred in Christianity. The sacrifice of marriage (losing yourself in the bond with one's spouse) is very selfless.

I have to disagree with your assertions that suicide is always selfish and that having children is always selfless. Suicide is an irrational act brought on by suffering and despair. Perhaps some do it to hurt others or because they are not thinking about the repercussions of their irrational actions, but I think most do it because they do not know how to alleviate their suffering in any other way. My mother used to say that suicide was selfish, but as a narcissist she was always more concerned about the effects others' actions would have on her rather than having compassion for their suffering. As to having children, some parents have children for very selfish reasons like feeling lonely or in despair and do not make their children a priority or work to raise them as independent human beings with their own emotional needs.

In short, nothing in human experience can be so easily categorized.

Gassho,
Dosho

[JohnsonCM]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Both actions can be extremely selfish, and also selfless. But, for the most part, they are one or the other. Suicide is most often a selfish act, used to carry out the delusions the self has about it giving them piece. There are exceptions, the ancient samurai for example would commit sepuku for losing their honor, but their honor was the honor of their entire family, and so for the society of the time, it could litteraly be punishing the son for the sins of the father. Sepuku back then, restored the family's honor, wiping the slate clean so that the samurai's family would not live under the cloud of his disgrace. That is true selflessness.

By that same token, I've lost count of parents who try to live vicariously through their children.

[Dosho]

Re: my very limited take on two important questions

Well, we don't know for a fact that committing suicide wouldn't give someone peace. I don't know that at all.

Is the idea that suicide is selfish because of how it would affect other people? I'd be interested to hear what other's reactions would be to hearing of a suicide.

My first thought would be, "Oh my God, what kind of pain must they have been in to do such a thing?"

Would the first thoughts of someone who believes suicide is selfish be, "Oh my God, how could they do this to me?"

Which of those responses sounds selfish to you?

Gassho,
Dosho