the best show in town

[Jundo]

Hey Guys,

Interesting discussion! Would it be okay if I talk about this in tomorrow's sitting? (Of course, when I do so, it is just my personal opinion. I mean, I wasn't around either to hear Shakyamuni 'in his own words,' and I am a little biased on the Nishijima lineage for some reason. :roll:

I'm off to bed. Good night. Gassho, Jundo

[Hans]

Hi Jundo!

Sure, go ahead, you have my non-religious blessing

There is a similar thread that recently got started at E-Sangha called:

Is Zen separabledifferent than Buddhism?, A Buddhist school or something else?

to be found in the Chan and Zen Forum.


Gassho,

Hans

[Hans]

Hello Harry!

The reason why I tend to speak out so strongly against faith probably has to do with the fact that the German equivalent "glauben" has a heavier, definite and more serious ring to it than the English term faith imho.

We both seem to share the same "none of my business" attitude, and I am more than happy to point out to people, that my practice has very little in common with Tibetan style Guru-yoga, esoteric rituals involving loads of equipment etc. I just reserve my right to say "maybe" in a few instances, instead of "definitely not", because it just reminds me too much of our western hubris. Nevertheless, the "definitely not", may well be true.


Gassho,

Hans

[Keishin]

The best show in town now playing theonly show there ever is

Evolution--the impermanence of all things, constant co-arising.
Is this 'change' or 'process'

My potted plants change constantly. There is continual process going on I don't know if this is change--it is process just being exactly what it is--process.
Having a mind this is part of the process called being human. This mind gets me in trouble and yet it is with this very same troubled mind that I take off one by one the mental constraints that stunt and bind mind. I've wormed my way this far along in life and as I start to unbind mind I find that these constraints somehow have been 'protecting' me, even now as they appear to get in my way. Am I changing? Am I all along just being process called human? Isn't zen a way to cultivate the fruiting of this process called human? Isn't realization the fruit of the mind/body process called 'human'?
It doesn't get better than this best show in town, the only show there ever is!

[Dharmamong]

who knows?

[Jundo]

Hi David,

Hello, I'm from the Korean Lin-Chi trad.(Rinzai).
I would like to comment on Dogens comment on just sitting is enlightenment. What I believe Dogen is actually saying is, that the mind that does not discriminate and abides nowhere is the aim of enlightenment and whilst sitting Zazen, this occurs. However, to truly realise Satori, one must be able to carry this "Sitting" mind with them at all times. Another way of saying this is from an old Master,"Every day mind is the way".

David

I would say that Dogen was rather more radical about it (just sitting is enlightenment) than that, and also his point of view was a bit different.

He meant, in my understanding, that the act of just sitting itself, just crossing the legs and straightening the spine, is a perfect act right then and there, with nothing to add to it and nothing to take away. There is nothing to seek, nothing to achieve. It is simply reality at that moment. It it is so even when one does not feel "nondiscriminating and non-abiding" like you describe. There is no "special state" to obtain.

Of course, by learning to live as if there is nothing to add to life and nothing to take away, nothing to seek, nothing to achieve, that there is no "special state" to obtain ... well, is that not a VERY special way to just be??

Furthermore, Dogen meant that even when Zazen is boring, or unpleasant, or unbalanced, or anything but feeling like "enlightenment", and even when the mind is unstable, and discriminating and abiding on this and that ... well, that is STILL enlightenment right there and there,

In other words, the point is not to constantly possess all through your day some mind that does not discriminate and abides nowhere, although we can feel that way sometimes and at certain moments. Instead, the point is to just have the mind we have at any moment, even when it is really discriminating and abiding in suckiness (i.e., suCKiness or suCHness). Thus, not discriminating against a mind that discriminates, not abiding in a mind that abides ... that is a mind that truly does not discriminate or abide!!

In other words, "Everyday mind is the way". Nothing to escape about it ... thus we are free.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - I am going to give a little talk related to this before tonight's sitting, entitled maybe "Making THE RIGHT CHOICE."