Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

[Taylor]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

P.s. As for the three shoes? He would wear two and use the other for a flower pot. Well, I would at least.

I like this metaphor, because it describes how I feel about mixing religious material to suit one's needs. Yes, it is best to stick to the basic "meat" of the structure, i.e., wearing two shoes-- which is useful and how most people go about using shoes. However, a shoe can be used as a flowerpot, just as elements of Zen can be used in other religions and parts of life-- or elements of other religions being used to enrich or broaden one's understanding of Zen.

Also, having studied many religions, noticing the similarities between all the different "Nirvana's" and the practices of them all has caused me to wonder if we are all "practicing" "Zen/ Christianity/ Islam/ etc." by various methods all at once and for the same "end."/quote]

Many bows for the profundity of meaning you gave to my answer. Really though, just put on your shoes and do what you will with the spare. No metaphor implied, I'm afraid, just someone studying botany thinking about plants

Gasshoooooooooo
Taylor

[Daibh]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

A big whole-hearted thank you to everyone who has posted since I was last logged on.

Your thoughtful replies have been of great interest to me!

Gassho
Dave.

[Jinyu]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

Hi everyone!
Taigu and Taylor said something that made me think about Chogyam Trungpa's teachings.
Tibetan Buddhism is no doubt among all the Buddhist schools I know the one in which the Buddhist syncretism is the strongest. Indeed, the monks often spend periods of practice in one or the other tradition without problems(even if they share much of their teachings, they expose them in a fairly different way) and I don't event speak about the preeminence of Bön.

All this to say that he has developed in contact with the West, the principle of "spiritual materialism".
He defines it as a state of mind.
The mindset of those who wish to appropriate, keeping, storing the teachings and concepts available around them.
He highlighted the fact that this is not necessarily the result of practicing in a certain school rather than another (I think he was also great friends of Shunryu Suzuki).

But the important thing is the spirit in which we approach these other practices.

He used the beautiful image of our mind as an empty room that we try to fill with spiritual objects. If one wants to "take", selfishly get this or that teaching, our "mental room" will be quickly filled and unworkable.

In this perspective, I think we should keep Shikantaza Zazen at the center of our "mental room" and not try to fill this piece with other practices.
This does not mean that we can not be in contact, or appreciate other teachings and practices (like Chogyam Trungpa's teachings ).
Simply, we must avoid doing so with the intention of appropriation ... without "spiritual materialism" ...

He also says that we don't need to see teachings and practices as things that we must "have" (like having a collection). This kind of vision tend to give us a very dualistic view on things (my practice and their practice, my teachings and their teachings,...)... And at the end we take the risk of losing the essential simplicity of Buddhist practice.

Hope it helps!

gassho everyone,
Luis/Jinyu

[Daibh]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

An extremely useful post Luis.

Thanks for sharing that!

(...I admit that I had to look up 'syncretism') :roll:

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

The way is not a supermarket or a buffet. We find what suits us and then get on with it.

Taigu

IMO, "getting on with it" is the whole point here. Maybe I misunderstood the original post, but I think reading/hearing about other teachings and other practices will help me to "get on with" what we do here at Treeleaf. Much in the same way the reading about Lamarckian evolution can help a student understand Darwinian evolution, I think reading about (say) Rinzai Zen can help one understand Soto Zen. (may be a bad example, since Lamarck was "wrong" and Darwin was "right" - I don't intend to imply that about Rinzai and Soto)

For example, I am currently reading "Understanding Our Mind" (more posts to come on that later) which describes a Buddhist model of the mind. I hope to understand how shikintaza and Soto Zen fits into that model. To further clarify that model, I think it would be helpful to understand how koan study and Rinzai Zen fit in that model as well. This doesn't mean I am "shopping" for a different practice, but (I believe) understanding different practices will contribute to my overall understanding and enhance my Soto Zen practice.

[Jinyu]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

This doesn't mean I am "shopping" for a different practice, but (I believe) understanding different practices will contribute to my overall understanding and enhance my Soto Zen practice.

I Craig I agree with you on this!
But at a certain point, it is necessary to fully do our practice. What I mean is: comparing is normal but each Buddhist path is a good path by itself and we must be aware of the danger of "blending practices". Each path is valuable only if we fully practice them!

Well, I hope I'm "understandable", sorry but I'm quite in hurry...

gassho,
Luis/Jinyu

[Eika]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

Even a centipede can only walk one path at a time.

Reading about other traditions is wonderful for understanding the greater context, but mixing practices is a separate and more dangerous issue. Each practice was developed on concert with the other practices of that particular tradition. Decontextualized practices often lack the supporting ties to really inform our travels on the path.

Gassho,
Eika

[Geika]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

I don't know if I really see it as dangerous... more like it's harder to gain any depth in anything if you don't study it for longer than a few hours...

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

Each path is valuable only if we fully practice them!

I don't know this to be true, or untrue. This does seem to be what Jundo and Taigu are advocating, and as I am leaning on their expertise, that is the path I will follow for now. But I have no evidence (objective or subjective) to back this up.

Craig

[Jinyu]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

Each path is valuable only if we fully practice them!

I don't know this to be true, or untrue. This does seem to be what Jundo and Taigu are advocating, and as I am leaning on their expertise, that is the path I will follow for now. But I have no evidence (objective or subjective) to back this up.

Craig

Hi Craig

Please don't "get me wrong on this", my point was just that we need to fully try "the thing" before thinking about changing it by adding this or that!
I wasn't especially thinking about Treeleaf or Soto... In fact it was quite the contrary.
In my little experience with other Buddhist traditions, all teachers I met said the same thing!

But Shikantaza is different, globally we can say there is an evolution in our practice... but in wich directions? what is the goal? wath is the scale to mesure it?

What I want to express is that they are traditions where there is a real map of meditation. In the theravadan tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw for example, they can say after some interviews with the teacher "look you are here and at the end of the retreat you will probably be at this level"... Sounds nice isn't it!

But in our Soto tradition, it is not "the same soup"!

I once heard a nice story on sesshin:
a monk asks an older monk
- I'm studying with my teacher for 10 years now, and all we do is sitting facing the wall. Will I attain buddhahood doing this?
and the older monk answers
- sit another 10 years with your teacher and then ask yourself the question again!

I don't know if you understand what I want to mean by all that (sorry it is quite late and I'm in exams so I'm a bit in hurry again) , It is also about trust... trust in this practice

But to say the truth I like your skeptic (maybe it is not the right word, sorry) "lets see what we get here" kind of view!
I spent these last years practicing only in this tradition... but I didn't wanted to seam sectarian or what

gassho,
Luis/Jinyu

[Nenka]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

I'm glad this question came up, as I'm thinking of checking out a local Ordinary Mind Zen group in my area. As far as I can tell, the differences between that and Soto Zen are subtle, but I am concerned that I will get confused (or, at least, will be biting off more than I can chew). Well, I'll see what happens.

[Jundo]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

I'm glad this question came up, as I'm thinking of checking out a local Ordinary Mind Zen group in my area. As far as I can tell, the differences between that and Soto Zen are subtle, but I am concerned that I will get confused (or, at least, will be biting off more than I can chew). Well, I'll see what happens.

See what happens.

And if anything that they tell you is different from something Taigu and I tell you ...

... well, just listen to us, of course! 8)

[kfrance0]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

This thread came along at a perfect time for me. I've just been reading "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist," and the author deals with a lot of these same issues. He spent some years in northern India living as a monk in the Tibetian style of Buddhism (in fact, he was acquainted with the current Dalai Lama when both were young men, and lived in the community of Tibetian exiles). But as time went by he found himself more and more at odds with the dogma/doctrine that must be accepted as literal truth in that school of Buddhism (and reading his take on it, now I see why Watts said the Tibetian take on Buddhism is by far the most mystic flavor out there). The author mentions at one point an intention to visit Japan and see if zen suits his way of thinking, but life got in his way--he ended up marrying a fellow monastic from a Korean school and the two of them moved back to England (where he was originally from) to teach there. But through so much of the book, I find myself wondering how he ever missed Japanese zen--so much of the book is his whittling away the mystic, religious trappings and supernatural claims to get at the core of what the Buddha thought and taught...and he seems to be arriving at a place that's completely consistent with Jundo's and Nishijima-roshi's book "A Heart to Heart Chat on Buddhism." Hopefully I'm not being too unfair to the author--it's quite obvious that he's forgotten far more about Buddhism than I'll ever know, so who am I to wonder about what this guy's missed and what he hasn't? LOL Also, I'm writing this without having actually finished the book yet--I'm just about 2/3 of the way through so far.

[Nenka]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

Jundo--

And if anything that they tell you is different from something Taigu and I tell you ...

... well, just listen to us, of course! 8)

Okay, you guys got dibs. :wink:


Kevin--

You might be interested in the podcast/transcription of an interview with Stephen Batchelor here: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/bg ... t-atheist/ Enjoy!

[Govert]

Re: Teachings Practices from other Schools / Traditions

There are so many interesting teachings out there, there is only one that is right here, right now, .... but it happens again and again that I am looking for somewhere else.
:shock:

From my experience I have been looking around and reading from different teachers/teachings. At the end off the day, I just go to my cushion and sit. It does matter to get inspired and a good book by Thich That Nanh and the Dalai Lama is always inspiring. There is the longing to hear and see what we think we might have missed in one place, ...

Gassho

Ensho