Practice

[Jundo]

Re: Practice

Jundo,
Thank you, this is exactly the sort of candidness I was hoping to get. I was looking for a different angle on this topic and I feel that you have given it to me. Maybe I just wanted it this way because I feel like I got it on my terms. Thanks again.

Gassho,

Rob.

Hi Rob,

I am not jumping on Stephanie to be mean. There is tremendous Wisdom and Compassion in her words. However, I truly feel that her description of this "awakening" she imagines is just angst filled rehashed Camus via some college indy band ... not Buddhist Practice. This practice is supposed to bring about Peace, Stability amid Chaos, freedom from Suffering, Oneness with the Universe, seeing beyond life's battlefields ... milking cows and seeing flowers as the Buddha and the whole universe ... and that's it's TRUTH!

Sometimes folks searching for "Truth" and "the Real" remind me of the guy peeling away the onion layer by layer until there is nothing left and nothing at the core ... all the while missing the pungent "Truth" of the real onion that was there all along, in each layer.

I am just being blunt ... 40 whacks.

[Rob_Heathen]

Re: Practice

Jundo,
Thank you, this is exactly the sort of candidness I was hoping to get. I was looking for a different angle on this topic and I feel that you have given it to me. Maybe I just wanted it this way because I feel like I got it on my terms. Thanks again.

Gassho,

Rob.

Hi Rob,

I am not jumping on Stephanie to be mean. There is tremendous Wisdom and Compassion in her words. However, I truly feel that here description of this "awakening" she imagines is just angst filled rehashed Camus via some college indy band ... not Buddhist Practice. This practice is supposed to bring about Peace, Stability amid Chaos, freedom from Suffering, Oneness with the Universe, seeing beyond life's battlefields ... milking cows and seeing flowers as the Buddha and the whole universe ... and that's it's TRUTH!

Sometimes folks searching for "Truth" and "the Real" remind me of the guy peeling away the onion layer by layer until there is nothing left and nothing at the core ... all the while missing the pungent "Truth" of the real onion that was there all along, in each layer.

I am just being blunt ... 40 whacks.

I know you aren't being mean Jundo, and I won't speak for Stephanie, but I think she understands as well. There is a very dark angst ridden piece to both of us and again I am not speaking FOR Stephanie but based on our conversations with one another I think we are learning a lot from each other. Being blunt is good, I am very blunt with most people that I encounter. I had a very interesting discussion tonight here in Afghanistan with someone who wis SGI and someone who is Nichiren, both (especially the SGI member) seemed very put off when I discussed Soto Zen and Shikantaza. I was very blunt with them about what I thought yet very open to hearing about their schools. It is my hope that you will always be very blunt with me about the things I say and my delusions. I know I don't have anything figured out and that the things I say mostly come out as vomit. I am here to learn from you and being blunt is the preferable method as far as I am concerned. Thank you.

Gassho,

Rob

[Rob_Heathen]

Re: Practice

Jundo,
I also want to add that I wanted this thread to sorta coincide with your last two sit-a-longs. A discussion of as you said "every step of the journey is a constant arriving at a place that was never left." My blue sky and my dust filled brown/grey smog clouds are perfect as they are. I love the "at one piece" I have begun using it quite often. These last few sit-a-longs have been fantastic and along with your candid/blunt replys in this thread are exactly what I think I was asking you for. I seem to be thanking people a lot lately. I say it almost too often, can you say thank you too often? Thank you. Again.

Gassho,

I might not be Rob after all, but in all honesty probably am...

[Stephanie]

Re: Practice

No worries Jundo, I need the poke, it's what I'm here for :wink:

Yes, I am quite prone to "angst" and "darkness" and all that jazz... but you must understand I'm not currently wallowing in sadness. Right now I am filled with an amazing sense of peace and contentment, even as I lose my grip on some of the fairy tales I've been chasing for a while. I still gravitate toward the darker places in life because I find them to be the more beautiful ones, and strangely life-affirming. I know that is just my particular twisted conditioning, and I do need to be reminded sometimes that's all it is ops:

I also love words, and get carried away by them... often. And my love of language sometimes causes me to go with something that sounds poetic to me instead of trying to express my points as clearly and concisely as possible.

So, while I acknowledge that I do tend to sometimes not see past my own 'angsty' preferences, I want to make clear what the points I'm trying to make actually are, so we can examine them:

1. "Icy wind" is not meant to convey something bleak or painful or sad. It's mean to convey something crisp and clear and piercing, sort of like the concept of "vajra" in Tibetan Buddhism. And Zen is full of talk of "withered trees" and the like, I don't think the Zen teachers using such terms were prone to moody contemplations in cafes while wearing black turtlenecks. They were just trying to convey a lack of something... a lack that is freeing and exhilarating, not depressing or forlorn. And maybe even that sounds a bit like Camus, but I respect Camus as a wise person. Even Camus said, "One must imagine Sisyphus happy." That's one of the most bizarrely optimistic statements ever made, wouldn't you say? And I think it resonates with the Zen perspective and Zen practice.

2. For the love of Buddha, I'm not saying that Zen masters and teachers were not moral people or that they did not teach morality! Can we stop picking apart this strawman?? What I'm saying is that while morality is an important part of the path, it is "secondary" to awakening. Now that is something of a fallacy because, of course, morality and awakening are not separate things. But there is a reason that in the stories of all the Zen ancestors, we don't read about how many orphans they bathed or the dramatic ways they martyred themselves. We read stories about how they expressed their piercing clarity of mind and woke their students up to Reality. That central awakening was the nexus of all moral training and practice, not the other way around. I make that point not to say we shouldn't practice morality, but that moral practice alone is not the whole enchilada, and that if morality and moral practice is our only concern, we are missing a huge piece of Buddhist practice and awakening.

[Silva]

Re: Practice

hello Rob, hello everyone,

thank-you for this most nourishing post Rob.
Typically as i'm French I relate evrything to food. The latest dramatic events in my life have not deterred from this vein!
Jundo's words

This practice is supposed to bring about Peace, Stability amid Chaos, freedom from Suffering, Oneness with the Universe, seeing beyond life's battlefields ... milking cows and seeing flowers as the Buddha and the whole universe ... and that's it's TRUTH!

My answer is Mayonnaise!
I feel that my practice, especially recently has led me to peacefully live chaos, somehow to be One with the Universe I have to reconcile the constantly arising contradictions in my life rather than try to free myself from any of them. Awareness comes in to find the appropiate subtle touch that mixes totally unmiscible ingredients to create a stable peaceful whole where all can "inter-be" exactly as they are and yet just absolutely,completely,simply be mayonnaise...
gassho,

Sylvie

[Eika]

Re: Practice

I'll deludedly wade in here:

One of the most striking points I got from a book called "The Wild White Goose" by Jiyu Kennett Roshi was her account of struggles with trying to separate enlightenment and everything else. Her teacher warns her several times that she is "trying to split enlightenment." In the Soto-shu I take this to mean that as much as we might want to, we cannot separate enlightenment from delusion any more than unmixing paint colors once they are stirred. Life is practice: delusion and enlightenment tangled into a big fine mess. We practice everyday, for a while on the zafu and the rest of the time in the world. 24hrs a day. What is not practice? So, yes we talk about zazen as if it could be separated from daily life, but it really can't be. Morality is practice. Zazen is practice. Sleep is practice.

Shikantaza is the motor of the car, but morality, ritual, etc, are the frame, chassis, etc. It is all part of the path. Inseparably so. That is NOT to say that morality is a fixed entity, existing as some absolute set of rules. But there is a middle way where morality is important without falling into nihilism or fundamentalism.

I went to a sesshin a few weeks ago. One with oryoki at every meal, etc. And it forced me to begin to see things this way. I intellectually sort of knew it before, but by the end of the sesshin, it was clear to me that every event in the day was practice.

No separation.

Gassho,
Eika

[Risho]

Re: Practice

Another damned solid thread! I learn so much here, thank you everyone

I just wanted to add my "Wow" moment that I just had yesterday.

My wife and I ordered food from a local Vietnamese place, and I went in the restaurant to pick it up.

I went up to the counter, and I waited, credit card in hand ready to pay for my order. Up comes an older man.

Well this sob, goes over to the right of me and talks to the woman behind the register, and asks about his takeout order.

What the hell???!!!!! I was there first, what the hell does this guy think he's doing??!!!! I exhale and look over. I'm literally fuming. Then I just stand there with that anger. Why am I so mad? It's not like he going before me is going to cause me to starve to death. I mean it was rude, but it's not really that big of a deal. Then I start getting angry again.

Then the woman looks at me to ask me what my order # was. "My enemy" looks at me and apologizes because he had no idea that I was waiting to talk to her. In the meantime, I had been waging mental WW3 with this man.

So in any case, my wow moment was to realize that I'm often times a completely self-centered a-hole.

I'm often times easy going when things go my way, but when they don't I really throw temper tantrums... mostly internal but they are there.

But now there is a shift. I still get pissed, but I focus on that anger.

I also notice that I want to fix that anger, or feel guilty, but it's all my ego playing more delusion games. So I feel that temptation of turning zen into self help. I catch myself wanting that from practice a lot.

But I do like I do in zazen, sit (or stand or drive with it) and let it pass. It doesn't always work. lol

[Taylor]

Re: Practice

But I do like I do in zazen, sit (or stand or drive with it) and let it pass. It doesn't always work. lol

BOOM!

The bold is my favorite part. It's the act of being aware that is amazing. We have a way off the crazy train of thoughts, sweeping sweeping sweeping, but still we get caught now and then. I find it is really best to literally "lol" after this, maybe you'll look crazy, but who really cares?

Gassho for the teaching,
Taylor

[Jundo]

Re: Practice

No worries Jundo, I need the poke, it's what I'm here for :wink:

Yes, I am quite prone to "angst" and "darkness" and all that jazz... but you must understand I'm not currently wallowing in sadness. Right now I am filled with an amazing sense of peace and contentment, even as I lose my grip on some of the fairy tales I've been chasing for a while. I still gravitate toward the darker places in life because I find them to be the more beautiful ones, and strangely life-affirming. I know that is just my particular twisted conditioning, and I do need to be reminded sometimes that's all it is ops:.

I think this important enough, so started another thread ...

viewtopic.php?p=39122#p39122

[Martin]

Re: Practice

A great thread, thank you all.

Near the top of the thread, Stephanie said “See how well the "Ah, the fields are so green" realization functions when your wife leaves you”.

Well, I’ve had both of those. And, no, when my wife left me the field wasn’t green. Or rather, it probably was, but I wasn’t looking. It wasn’t a “field is so green” moment, more of a “Shit-my-wife-has-left-me-it-hurts-I-didn’t-know-emotional-pain-could-hurt-like-physical-pain-and-how-am-I-going-to manage-the-job-with-3-boys” kind of moment. Not much room for grass being green. And yet. I’ve experienced both and at the risk of sounding more than usually incoherent, whilst there was nothing of the “grass is green” moment when my wife left, they were and are somehow of the same substance. Both were equally, well, empty (can’t think of a better word, sorry, because it's a bit of a cop out) and precisely because of the emptiness, vibrant and, just, alive. Life living itself. Does that make sense? No, probably not. But what I wanted to say was that I can’t see (though not having had kensho maybe I wouldn’t know) that an enlightened person would be all “grass is green” in the “my wife has left me” moment – wouldn’t that be precisely a delusion in that moment? Whatever kensho / realisation may be, maybe it’s not an opt out from suffering?

Gassho

Martin

[Risho]

Re: Practice

But what I wanted to say was that I can’t see (though not having had kensho maybe I wouldn’t know) that an enlightened person would be all “grass is green” in the “my wife has left me” moment – wouldn’t that be precisely a delusion in that moment? Whatever kensho / realisation may be, maybe it’s not an opt out from suffering?

Martin and Don, thank you for sharing your personal experiences with suffering.

I tend to agree with this. On one side you could completely be like oh crap and reject what's happening and freak out, and freak out about freaking out, and on the other hand you can pretend like everything is ok... But I think what you are saying is that don't go to the extreme, accept the suffering and find tranquility with it.

After all, the Buddha said Life is dukkha. But he also provided a way to be at one with it, not to escape (ok that's my understanding, waiting humbly for my whacks. hahaha)

[Hans]

Re: Practice

Hello Cyril,

please allow me a question (and please keep in mind I am not the type who thinks that scriptures have to be great only because some people consider them to be holy), just out of interest. Where does the Buddha ever say that his path is not about escaping suffering? (Pali or Sanskrit scripture references will both do). Obviously it depends on what you mean by "escaping". I think there is a slight danger in the wording "being at one"...dropping delusion, opening up to dynamic suchness is IMHO a very valid approach to resolving the problem of suffering...but the term "being at one" can also lead one astray along the road of eternalism, because it sounds as if there was a) someone who could be at one with: b) a something.

Now of course we should keep in mind that historically speaking, early Buddhism was much more about soteriological goals....salvation from the round of rebirths (that was not seen metaphorically like a lot of westerners do, but was mostly perceived as a fact...in the same way people consider it a fact that they have a soul IMHO)....in later Buddhist schools, particularly Dogen's teachings seem to focus a lot more on the ontological side of things...in their quest to realize enlightenment.

It's always a tightrope walk...ya gotta say something... and depending on the reader's/listener's perspective eternalism/nihilism just wait round the corner to bite us in the butt


Gassho,

Hans

[Engyo]

Re: Practice

"On one side you could completely be like oh crap and reject what's happening and freak out, and freak out about freaking out, and on the other hand you can pretend like everything is ok... "

Cyril, may I ask with all respect, are there really only two choices; reject or pretend? If so, are you rejecting Buddha's prescription for suffering/misery/unsatisfactoriness or are you pretending it is not there?
There is a path proposed. Did you try it and it did not work for you?

Gassho,

[Hans]

Re: Practice

Hello again,


reading the last posts again made me feel like adding another two cents. We should distinguish between "suffering" as in "I broke my leg" and suffering as in " I still can't get over a particular fact." Certain kinds of suffering are just what they are, and yes, it seems good to accept the "brokenness" of this world (or your leg) to a certain degree. However the major Big-Kahuna share of suffering in this world is due to greed, hatred and above all delusion. And yes, we can dispel these through practice (through seeing through them).

Realising delusions can shatter the foundation on which they are built, simply accepting however can also mean one falls into the trap of teaching oneself to be OK with things one shouldn't be okay with. One doesn't have to accept anything ultimately, because reality does a great job of being what it is without our likes and dislikes. Truly dropping likes and dislikes however is something completely different and much more radical than well intended acceptance.

Jundo likes to say Acceptance without Acceptance.

Words are mine fields. and flower gardens.

We should just sit with radical honesty, so radical that we have to allow ourselves to scare ourselves (because we all have so much baggage), if that means we come closer to see things as they are.

Gassho,

Hans

[Engyo]

Re: Practice

Thank you very much, Hans.
To be more clear and expand, I was referring to Buddha's description of suffering:
"Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects." (Dhammacakkappavatthana Sutta)
Gassho,