Practice

[Rob_Heathen]

Hi everyone,
It is 2:30AM and I can't sleep until I attempt to get this all out. I apologize ahead of time if this is long and appears as though it is the rantings of a madman, I am not positive as to where this is going to go, but anyway. You have been warned, close your browser now if you don't want opinions and the mess of chaos in my head. :twisted:

Alright, I want to talk about Practice. We talk a lot here at Tree Leaf and the vast majority of it is great, but I don't feel like we directly discuss practice enough, maybe we do and I am so stupid that I missed them. One thread that we touched on practice is Jundo's discussion of "Great Awakening -- Dropping Mind and Body" and it was great. I enjoyed it, but I want to discuss practice and this non-goal of awakening from a different angle. In the thread that Stephanie or Chet started some months back about a Shobogenzo Study Group (which is a topic I would like to re-open) Jundo posted a link to this article http://www.buddhistethics.org/7/zelinski001.html That article, as you probably already see, is entitled "Ceaseless Practice" and after I read it I felt as though I had a much greater understanding (although I probably do not) about what Dogen was on about. About what Satori experience may or may not be. Kensho, the big WOW!

There has been controversy here as of late about what Kensho is, whether or not it really even exists and if it does exist should we completely dismiss it. My answers are all Yeses. Yes. Kensho is. Yes, it is does. Yes, it does not. Yes, we should dismiss it. Yes, it is important. I'm sorry to bring this up again as it may appear that I am flogging the dead monk, but honestly I think we have gone at this from the wrong angle or maybe I have been reading from the wrong angle and in that case I apologize ahead of time, again.

Everyday since I began my practice just 4 years ago, while I was living in another Middle Eastern country, temporarily, I have seen direct results from my practice. Without having any goals, I can see every day some result. Even if that result is feeling as if I have not "progressed." It is a result and I am happy with the impermanence that I have experienced. This to me is a WOW moment. Even when I fail to sit and I feel it in my marrow that I should have. I am in awe of how such a small or trivial (by appearances) thing can have a dramatic impact on me moment to moment. Every day that I recognize that I had/have compassion for someone that maybe 3 days ago I might not have had. I smile and say WOW. Last night I sat and thought for awhile about Robert Aitken Roshi who died the other day. I have a connection to Diamond Sangha in Tucson, I sat with them once and they were all lovely people and when i am in AZ I sit with their "Sister" Sangha in the small artsy town of Bisbee, AZ. I thought about Aitken Roshi and his passing while listening to a band called Mogwai. I had a very heavy feeling in my chest and was saddened. I came to the realization that this is another perfect example of beautiful impermanence and was pleased with myself for feeling sadness for this man and his community. I recognized this and said WOW. You want more examples, you say?! Well ok, I have lots more. I stepped outside the doorway to my prison cell I call a room the other day. I looked out at the horizon with my eyes all squinty because it was bright and almost 100 degrees at not quite 9am. A good 1/4 of the sky all around me was a dense greyish brown smog not unlike LA. It was disgusting and is caused from all the dust in the air. A moment later I looked up and saw the most beautiful section of blue sky I had ever seen in my life. In contrast and comparison to the grey brown mess on the horizon it was bluer than any other patch of sky in the world. It was literally so amazing that I almost fell over. All I could say was WOW!

I have not in my opinion had a Kensho or Satori experience, I haven't because I honestly don't care for these words. I don't care for your definitions of anything that I have not seen, because they are meaningless to me. But at the same time, I find the subject interesting and worth discussing. As long as we don't fail to forget that this practice is ceaseless, no matter how many dead monks or blue skies we happen across that change our views on life as we know it. I say again I have not had Kensho. But, I practice every day and without goal or agenda strive to be a better person and live a life that has maybe just a little less suffering than the day before. Because of my experiences, because of my blue skies and because of dead people. Believe me there have been a lot of both in my life. The thing is this, it does lead to something, to somewhere. It isn't a goal, we are not attaining. But I want to hear from my teachers and from my peers about their experiences directly with practice. With those moments that bring them closer, that give them a taste of less suffering and a more fulfilling life. Because, Kensho is just a meaningless word. But moments are what this practice is about and it is why we are all here. I don't just sit on my ass, to just sit on my ass.

I apologize again if I haven't entirely made sense, believe me up here it makes sense (points to empty melon). Just because my mess of thoughts up here make sense to me, doesn't make them right. They are opinions and thoughts about my practice and where it will one day head/not head.

Thank you for reading, yours in practice,
Deep Gassho, and all that...

Still just Rob.

[Rehn]

Re: Practice

Interesting post Rob. My response--and I'm not a teacher--is the response that I've read in many books. Wow what an experience, but don't be attached to it. Simply continue to sit on the mat. I feel that this is an encouraging response. I think that we all become attached to certain experiences or a good sit. And we hold on to them. Where in reality, we must simply go on sitting without expectation. Easier said than done of course.

Rehn

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Practice

Be careful what you ask for - you may get it (my opinion). So here it goes: I like your comment on kensho and satori - you aren't interested in definitions of something you haven't experienced. I agree. I am also less and less interested in even discussing kensho or satori, as they are neither goals of mine nor something I can hope to speak intelligently on at this time. Based on reading (and not first-hand experience), I'm guessing I will be even less interested in talking about kensho or satori if it ever happens to me.

Have I had interesting experiences since I began practicing Zen? Yes. I've been surprised by the look of things I have walked by every day for the last 25 years. I have a subtly different point of view on most everything I do every day. I have had a genuine change in my pace of life, and a subtle shift in my priorities. Do any of them seem remarkable or spectacular? Occasionally (at the time of occurence), then they seem to be "the new normal." Sesshin was the exception, a taste of freedom that gave me a glow that lasted for days after.

Is that why I practice? Who knows why anyone REALLY does anything, but I don't think so. My experiences and understandings so far have led me to believe that there is truth to be experienced in Zen. So I sit.

[Genkai]

Re: Practice

Thank you for this, Rob.

I see the WOW in the pile of dishes sitting in the sink. Years ago, it would be a battle; either with the dishes themselves, or with whoever was "supposed" to do the dishes. Practice helps me just do the dishes.

I see the WOW in my kids when they're in the midst of a tantrum. Not so long ago as the dishes, it too would be a battle. At their worst, practice helps me be able to deal with it kindly and calmly. (well, most of the time )

I see the WOW in walking down the street. I used to keep my eyes down, focused on the destination or my own 1,000 thoughts racing through as thoughts do. Practice helps me walk with a smile and pay attention to the world as it passes, and it amazes me every day how many people -- there all those years as I looked downward -- have been waiting to smile back.

The "results" of my practice go on and on (quoted because it's a clumsy word to use, I know). Sitting on the cushion, sitting on the bus, sitting in my office chair, sitting in the box seats at a ballgame... it truly is all practice. When I can keep that thought in my mind 100% of the time, perhaps I will have gotten somewhere. For now, I'm not too hung up on destinations.

Peter

[Stephanie]

Re: Practice

Beautiful post Rob.

I too believe in and have been enlivened by this "ceaseless practice" of everything-is-the-path.

But I think it is easy to hide in a shallow understanding of "ceaseless practice" and "everything-is-the-path."

When any of us struggle to justify our practice, we inevitably come up with worldly reasons--"I'm a more patient father," or "I'm a better milkmaid," or "The flowers look brighter."

But yet we nod when someone asserts "Zen is not self-help" or "Zen is not self-improvement."

We don't understand the contradiction.

Some people misunderstood my points before. I think being kind is important, I think moral practice, and more importantly, moral questioning, is important. But the transmission of Zen through the centuries has not been rooted in the transmission of moral guidelines. Unlike in the Christian tradition, the heroes and saints of Zen are not considered heroes and saints due to their moral perfection. Again, this is not because Zen Buddhism is anti-morality or non-moral. It is because morality is not the central focus. Awakening is the central focus.

What is awakening?

Dogen expressed a deep and profound realization when he expressed the "answer" to his long-burning personal koan of "Why practice, if we are already perfect?" His "answer": "Practice is enlightenment totally realized." This does not mean because you planted your ass on a cushion for thirty minutes that you have the same clarity as the realized Zen teachers who transmitted the Way!!! It means you were sitting in and with the same substance that the ancestors did and had. It's all here. But do you see it? There is this koan: "The nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?"

I think the danger of what seems to happen at Treeleaf is that people say, "Ah, there is no place the wind does not reach," but they are not fanning. They think they are fanning, but the roots of delusion are still deep. If you want the proof, see how well the "Ah, the fields are so green" realization functions when your wife leaves you or your house burns to the ground. It's harder to have a pastoral scene in your heart when the view out your window is a fugly broken-down cityscape, when you're all alone and your nice little stories are falling apart.

Wanting kensho is just a delusion of the self--one I have to drop all over again every day. The self says, "I want kensho!" The self wants another spiritual trophy to put on the shelf. As Taigu said once, the self is a collector of glimpses.

But even when I can drop this ego-driven quest for whatever-I-think-it-is, there is still something there... I have had moments where I felt "on the verge" or like I got very close... maybe more delusions... but even those tiny half-glimpses are like fucking missiles that blow the shit out of some pretty well-fortified delusions! I know from my personal experience that there is a difference between a sort of peaceful equanimity with things and a razor-sharp clarity. The peaceful "sky is blue" equanimity means you're still inside the illusion, just with better ballast. Waking up is like Truman opening up the door in the wall, stepping off the ship and out of the movie.

I was raised in a pretty intense family where psychological warfare was constantly breaking out, so I developed a taste for intensity that not all folks have. And one of the benefits of that otherwise unfortunate background is that I've never been troubled by a search for calm and security. I thrive in intense situations. I get a feeling of strength from weathering discomfort that is almost like a high. This "life training" has bred courage in me. And I'm grateful for it. I know that you know that same courage too.

So my Zen practice has never been about making my life calmer or more comfortable. It's been out of an inexplicable, primeval desire to know the truth. And I still have doubts and a feeling that something isn't quite clear, so I know I haven't fully pierced the truth... and yet, it has broken through enough that I know what it feels like. It is sharp, ruthless, and powerful, immense and unstoppable like a glacier eroding everything in its path. It obliterates delusions decisively. When it functions, there is nothing left over.

I would imagine that anyone that sticks with this Zen practice over the long term... through the periods when you're sitting through tears and loss and bleakness... through the times when your early ideals crumble to dust... starts to get a feel for what truth feels like. And that it is not soft or comforting, but it does not need to be, because it blasts away the brittle branches of delusion like a fierce, icy wind, and when they are gone, so is the pain that needed comfort. And, standing alone in that icy wind, you realize that the scenery of the moment, and your appreciation or lack thereof, don't matter at all. Just a few specks of dust blowing into formation for a brief moment, before they blow apart again. How can you ever be afraid again? All you have to fear is the loss of what never existed in the first place.

[Rob_Heathen]

Re: Practice

Craig,

My experiences and understandings so far have led me to believe that there is truth to be experienced in Zen. So I sit.

Exactly, truth. I like that line a lot.


Stephanie,

Thank you, exactly. I may not have made it entirely clear initially but this is what I am saying. I practice for one reason, to make life more....Lifelike. But I don't see that as an attachment or goal. I see results. I am not saying I AM a better person than previously, maybe I am, maybe I'm not. But to open myself up to life as a whole and take it all in.
You of all people know just how I feel about the things you written, the things I have read and loved. I think I found an area where your words might be a bit alienating to people who are just beginning this path...

But I think it is easy to hide in a shallow understanding of "ceaseless practice" and "everything-is-the-path."

When any of us struggle to justify our practice, we inevitably come up with worldly reasons--"I'm a more patient father," or "I'm a better milkmaid," or "The flowers look brighter."

I would disagree with the use of the words "hide in a shallow understanding" You are right, it would be easy, but we have to back away from the assumption that anyone is hiding or has a shallow interpretation of these concepts. It isn't for us to say, even if it is BLATANTLY evident at times. Another thing, people may inherently fall back on short quick explanations like "I'm a more patient father," or "I'm a better milkmaid," or "The flowers look brighter." Simply because they lack the overall ability to express their experience, again it isn't for us to judge.
I want to add, that I am pretty sure I completely understand what you are saying, I am just afraid of you alienating people off the bat and that because of that alienation might not understand your words clearly. Again, thank you for your prose. Reading your words have become a daily delight, and an attachment I may have to take a long look at soon and learn to drop

Yours in practice,

Still just the same ol' Rob.

[Stephanie]

Re: Practice

I would disagree with the use of the words "hide in a shallow understanding" You are right, it would be easy, but we have to back away from the assumption that anyone is hiding or has a shallow interpretation of these concepts. It isn't for us to say, even if it is BLATANTLY evident at times. Another thing, people may inherently fall back on short quick explanations like "I'm a more patient father," or "I'm a better milkmaid," or "The flowers look brighter." Simply because they lack the overall ability to express their experience, again it isn't for us to judge.

No, you're exactly right.

As soon as I judge others, I am indulging in a fantasy...

As always, I appreciate your kind feedback, and more importantly your own words, your own practice.

Gassho

[Taylor]

Re: Practice

Nice to peer into your head :P Many bows. Indeed, Kensho to me means about as much as "clouds" or "butter" or "tadpole". I catch myself looking for it now and then, then I catch myself catching myself :roll:

What's the difference between blue sky and an anxiety attack? That's the koan of the week. Three rings of a bell, I suppose. Speaking of blue sky, I try not to look for that either, even when I'm looking for it. Just watch the scenery go by, don't worry if the forest suddenly is set ablaze.

Practice shows itself in many ways, some unexplainable, unseen, unexpected. But it is also late here, a much calmer, cooler, and collected Taylor is off to bed after a terribly tiring week at the beach :mrgreen:

Gassho
Taylor

[Shogen]

Re: Practice

Hi everyone,
It is 2:30AM and I can't sleep until I attempt to get this all out. I apologize ahead of time if this is long and appears as though it is the rantings of a madman, I am not positive as to where this is going to go, but anyway. You have been warned, close your browser now if you don't want opinions and the mess of chaos in my head. :twisted:

Alright, I want to talk about Practice. We talk a lot here at Tree Leaf and the vast majority of it is great, but I don't feel like we directly discuss practice enough, maybe we do and I am so stupid that I missed them. One thread that we touched on practice is Jundo's discussion of "Great Awakening -- Dropping Mind and Body" and it was great. I enjoyed it, but I want to discuss practice and this non-goal of awakening from a different angle. In the thread that Stephanie or Chet started some months back about a Shobogenzo Study Group (which is a topic I would like to re-open) Jundo posted a link to this article http://www.buddhistethics.org/7/zelinski001.html That article, as you probably already see, is entitled "Ceaseless Practice" and after I read it I felt as though I had a much greater understanding (although I probably do not) about what Dogen was on about. About what Satori experience may or may not be. Kensho, the big WOW!

There has been controversy here as of late about what Kensho is, whether or not it really even exists and if it does exist should we completely dismiss it. My answers are all Yeses. Yes. Kensho is. Yes, it is does. Yes, it does not. Yes, we should dismiss it. Yes, it is important. I'm sorry to bring this up again as it may appear that I am flogging the dead monk, but honestly I think we have gone at this from the wrong angle or maybe I have been reading from the wrong angle and in that case I apologize ahead of time, again.

Everyday since I began my practice just 4 years ago, while I was living in another Middle Eastern country, temporarily, I have seen direct results from my practice. Without having any goals, I can see every day some result. Even if that result is feeling as if I have not "progressed." It is a result and I am happy with the impermanence that I have experienced. This to me is a WOW moment. Even when I fail to sit and I feel it in my marrow that I should have. I am in awe of how such a small or trivial (by appearances) thing can have a dramatic impact on me moment to moment. Every day that I recognize that I had/have compassion for someone that maybe 3 days ago I might not have had. I smile and say WOW. Last night I sat and thought for awhile about Robert Aitken Roshi who died the other day. I have a connection to Diamond Sangha in Tucson, I sat with them once and they were all lovely people and when i am in AZ I sit with their "Sister" Sangha in the small artsy town of Bisbee, AZ. I thought about Aitken Roshi and his passing while listening to a band called Mogwai. I had a very heavy feeling in my chest and was saddened. I came to the realization that this is another perfect example of beautiful impermanence and was pleased with myself for feeling sadness for this man and his community. I recognized this and said WOW. You want more examples, you say?! Well ok, I have lots more. I stepped outside the doorway to my prison cell I call a room the other day. I looked out at the horizon with my eyes all squinty because it was bright and almost 100 degrees at not quite 9am. A good 1/4 of the sky all around me was a dense greyish brown smog not unlike LA. It was disgusting and is caused from all the dust in the air. A moment later I looked up and saw the most beautiful section of blue sky I had ever seen in my life. In contrast and comparison to the grey brown mess on the horizon it was bluer than any other patch of sky in the world. It was literally so amazing that I almost fell over. All I could say was WOW!

I have not in my opinion had a Kensho or Satori experience, I haven't because I honestly don't care for these words. I don't care for your definitions of anything that I have not seen, because they are meaningless to me. But at the same time, I find the subject interesting and worth discussing. As long as we don't fail to forget that this practice is ceaseless, no matter how many dead monks or blue skies we happen across that change our views on life as we know it. I say again I have not had Kensho. But, I practice every day and without goal or agenda strive to be a better person and live a life that has maybe just a little less suffering than the day before. Because of my experiences, because of my blue skies and because of dead people. Believe me there have been a lot of both in my life. The thing is this, it does lead to something, to somewhere. It isn't a goal, we are not attaining. But I want to hear from my teachers and from my peers about their experiences directly with practice. With those moments that bring them closer, that give them a taste of less suffering and a more fulfilling life. Because, Kensho is just a meaningless word. But moments are what this practice is about and it is why we are all here. I don't just sit on my ass, to just sit on my ass.

I apologize again if I haven't entirely made sense, believe me up here it makes sense (points to empty melon). Just because my mess of thoughts up here make sense to me, doesn't make them right. They are opinions and thoughts about my practice and where it will one day head/not head.

Thank you for reading, yours in practice,
Deep Gassho, and all that...

Still just Rob.

Hi Rob
Stop "Thinking" about practice and start "Allowing" it. Each time I bow a little slice of my ego stays on the floor. Gassho zak

[Rich]

Re: Practice

After the wow, have a good laugh at life.

/Rich

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Practice

I would imagine that anyone that sticks with this Zen practice over the long term... through the periods when you're sitting through tears and loss and bleakness... through the times when your early ideals crumble to dust... starts to get a feel for what truth feels like. And that it is not soft or comforting, but it does not need to be, because it blasts away the brittle branches of delusion like a fierce, icy wind, and when they are gone, so is the pain that needed comfort. And, standing alone in that icy wind, you realize that the scenery of the moment, and your appreciation or lack thereof, don't matter at all. Just a few specks of dust blowing into formation for a brief moment, before they blow apart again. How can you ever be afraid again? All you have to fear is the loss of what never existed in the first place.

Stephanie,

Another beautiful post. I always feel like I am "cheating" because I'm not paying to read your prose! Quit whatever you are doing and become a writer 8)

So, please don't take this wrong, but given what I have read of your Zen experience, what makes you think the description above bears any relationship to reality? I'm not saying I have the slightest idea whether it does or does not - but your previous posts seem to imply that you are similarly "unawakened." If this is true, is your description above any more than what you hope awakening will be like? If you have direct experience, I would love to hear about that. If not, please don't stop writing because of that - I would just like to know whether I am reading spectacular fiction or unforgettable memoir :wink:

Thanks again for your posts,

Craig

[Stephanie]

Re: Practice

I would just like to know whether I am reading spectacular fiction or unforgettable memoir :wink:

Ha! Well, you know in Zen they say that any statement we make is fiction :wink:

And thanks for the praise, I love to write, and who knows, may get the inspiration to write something and publish it someday. For now, I'm happy to get future material for story writing from my work as a social worker :wink:

My experience very well could be singular. I have a bad habit of judging and making assumptions about others. This weekend's Treeleaf Skype chat really kickstarted some reflection on that for me.

I don't feel awake because I have lingering doubts and confusions, and that vague sense of looking for some kind of answer, though it is a lot less strong than it once was. I used to think about different possible "answers" all day long, and now such thoughts seem bizarre. What answer could my thought come up with that is any more real than a story about a dragon?

That said... while I have by no means "clarified all doubt" I've clarified some. There are things that used to catch me up and send me spinning that don't even register any more. I've had many experience of suffering deeply, and then seeing what I was doing and the suffering just going away completely. This certainly doesn't happen all the time, but it's happened enough that I've experienced that--at least for me--true release is not comfort, but its opposite. I spent a long time looking for some kind of comfort or reassurance, some sort of God or higher realm or law that would make sense of and justify this crazy business of life... but I no longer look for those things, because I've seen that they are not necessary, and that it is actually our looking and grasping for them that maintains our suffering. There I go again, talking about "we"... in the end, I only know what is true for me. I can have assumptions it is true for others, but I can't really know.

[Jundo]

Re: Practice

We talk a lot here at Tree Leaf and the vast majority of it is great, but I don't feel like we directly discuss practice enough, maybe we do and I am so stupid that I missed them.

Truly, we talk about little else.

This thread ... really, every thread ... is the example.

Everyday since I began my practice just 4 years ago, while I was living in another Middle Eastern country, temporarily, I have seen direct results from my practice. Without having any goals, I can see every day some result. Even if that result is feeling as if I have not "progressed." It is a result and I am happy with the impermanence that I have experienced. This to me is a WOW moment. Even when I fail to sit and I feel it in my marrow that I should have. I am in awe of how such a small or trivial (by appearances) thing can have a dramatic impact on me moment to moment.

REALIZATION (in the meaning of both realizing/understanding/grocking in one's marrow's marrow's marrow the Buddha's Teachings ... and "making real" these though one's life actions) is what this path is truly pathing ... and is the real Truth and Oneness and Original Face.

"REALIZATION" is a process of moment by moment continuous practice, manifesting profound understanding, on the cutting edge of enlightened activity and delusion. "KENSHO" is a moment(s)' piercing of emptiness, interconnection, no-self ... and thus a very useful insight, base, stepping stone, and not much more. REALIZATION is the real deal. That is one point stated very soundly in the fine explanation of the Zekinski article. REALIZATION without KENSHO is very much possible and still REALIZATION. On the other hand, KENSHO without REALIZATION is a trap.

But the transmission of Zen through the centuries has not been rooted in the transmission of moral guidelines. Unlike in the Christian tradition, the heroes and saints of Zen are not considered heroes and saints due to their moral perfection.

Stephanie, this statement is so historically, well, wrong ... I don't even know what evidence you can muster to support it. Even someone like Ikkyu, the Zen Master who openly hung out in brothels and had a main squeeze, was very much the exception in his day ... and may overall have been a pretty conservative fellow. You should look at Faure's "The Red Thread". What is more, sex and love is not "immorality" and there was something very loving and pure in Ikkyu's relationship with his lady. He was the rule as much as the exception.

Again, this is not because Zen Buddhism is anti-morality or non-moral. It is because morality is not the central focus. Awakening is the central focus.

Yes, "awakening" is and has always been the central foxus ... and is known as "awakening" through moral behavior it will manifest. Awakened beings generally do not rape, steal, rob banks for financial gain, get in fist fights etc.

And if there was ever a "moralist" it was Dogen.

I think folks like Maezumi Roshi and Trungpa, who drank to excess and (in some cases) slept around in ways which abused students, were enlightened on some points ... severely deluded individuals in other ways.

When any of us struggle to justify our practice, we inevitably come up with worldly reasons--"I'm a more patient father," or "I'm a better milkmaid," or "The flowers look brighter."

But yet we nod when someone asserts "Zen is not self-help" or "Zen is not self-improvement."

...

They think they are fanning, but the roots of delusion are still deep. If you want the proof, see how well the "Ah, the fields are so green" realization functions when your wife leaves you or your house burns to the ground.

I think you confuse two kinds of practice with fatherhood and flowers here. One is just "buji" Zen, and should be considered lightweight stuff ... as you rightly condemn. The other sees fatherhood, milking cows and being flowers as the whole universe realized (see definition of "realization" above) ... and is enlightenment itself. That is the kind of fatherhood, cow milking and flowers we emphasize in this Sangha (although not necessarily incompatible with just living life).

This practice is precisely about getting old, getting sick, facing death, wives leaving and houses burning down. WHAT DO YOU THINK WE ARE PRACTICING WITH? Are you the kind of person who thinks it cannot be "serious" and "real life" unless it looks like an addict in the gutter with a needle in his arm? You think that "real life" is not what the people in this Sangha are living and struggling with every day? The people around here are dealing with, practicing with "Life" ... divorces, cancer, war, aging, bankruptcy, you name it.

And I still have doubts and a feeling that something isn't quite clear, so I know I haven't fully pierced the truth... and yet, it has broken through enough that I know what it feels like. It is sharp, ruthless, and powerful, immense and unstoppable like a glacier eroding everything in its path. It obliterates delusions decisively. When it functions, there is nothing left over.... I would imagine that anyone that sticks with this Zen practice over the long term... through the periods when you're sitting through tears and loss and bleakness... through the times when your early ideals crumble to dust... starts to get a feel for what truth feels like. And that it is not soft or comforting, but it does not need to be, because it blasts away the brittle branches of delusion like a fierce, icy wind, and when they are gone, so is the pain that needed comfort. And, standing alone in that icy wind, you realize that the scenery of the moment, and your appreciation or lack thereof, don't matter at all. Just a few specks of dust blowing into formation for a brief moment, before they blow apart again. How can you ever be afraid again? All you have to fear is the loss of what never existed in the first place.

I believe that Craig's spider senses were right on this as he wrote ...

So, please don't take this wrong, but given what I have read of your Zen experience, what makes you think the description above bears any relationship to reality? I'm not saying I have the slightest idea whether it does or does not - but your previous posts seem to imply that you are similarly "unawakened." If this is true, is your description above any more than what you hope awakening will be like?

Stephanie, after you "realize" this "ruthless truth" ... and the "icy wind" ... there will be a pile of dust and tin cans. Stephanie, to use the kind of language you like ... I think there may something here and there, but this is largely angst filled crap and a solid dose of self delusion, not real understanding. Patty Smith lyrics, not Buddhist practice.

Gassho, Jundo

[Rob_Heathen]

Re: Practice

Jundo,
Thank you, this is exactly the sort of candidness I was hoping to get. I was looking for a different angle on this topic and I feel that you have given it to me. Maybe I just wanted it this way because I feel like I got it on my terms. Thanks again.

Gassho,

Rob.

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Practice

true release is not comfort, but its opposite.

Much food for thought in just this one short line. Between you and Taigu my brain hurts.