Is morality the measure of wisdom?

[ghop]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

If you're on the street and some random guy says, "Hey, fuck you!" Then, to me, expressing the moment might be saying, "Hey, fuck you!" back, in that cheerful way New Yorkers have of saying it to one another

Or online. ops:

I don't dream about becoming one of those old church biddies who's always clucking at everyone who doesn't live their idea of a moral life.

gassho

Attached files

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

Does practicing moral behavior cultivate wisdom? Most likely so, as I think this is called practicing the Way.

Wow - if this is true I have missed the entire point of Zen. I thought (in Soto Zen) practicing the Way was zazen. Period. What some people call moral behavior might result from this practice, but the practice of (what some people would call) moral behavior certainly will not lead to enlightenment (defined as zazen in Soto).

If practicing the Way is no different from some preacher telling me how to behave, I could have picked a religion to follow (no, I obviously don't consider Zen a religion, although I will admit that all depends on your definition of religion).

[Dosho]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

Telling yourself "life is perfect as it is" and learning how to roll with the ups and downs is not it. Being a good neighbor or practicing kind speech is not it. These are part of the Buddhist path, but they are not full realization. And if we stay stuck in this kind of practice where we never see, it's like laboring in the shadows our whole lives thinking we're sitting in the sun. We may be doing lovely things in the shadows, but we don't even know what the sunshine is like. And suddenly you step into the sun and say, "Wow, this is how it really is..." And nothing has changed, and yet the impulse to get engaged in the same old dramas goes away.

Clinging to one's views is not just about being attached to what we believe to be true. It is also when we are so sure of what isn't true that we become locked into a pattern of thinking. I agree that being nice and speaking kindly are not "it", but mostly because whatever "it" is would be so far beyond that very human thinking. You so often speak with such authority about what "it" is not and then turn around and presume to tell us that certain types of practice are taking the wrong path. I mean no disrespect and mean this literally: What do you know? I honestly believe that unless you let go of what "it" is not, I don't think you are likely to have any true awakening since you put so many things into the category of certainty. Could true awakening be about letting go of those "is too" vs. "is not" arguments? I have no idea...but neither do you.

[Saijun]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

Because it's terrifying to let go of the familiar things that give us comfort, like our reassuring ideas of right and wrong and what kind of people we are. But you have to go through the terror to get to the freedom on the other side.

I agree with the first part of that statement, but couldn't disagree more with the second part. Freedom does not require terror. To think it does is clinging to a very particular worldview that I personally do not share. I've had my share of terror and I'm sure it has led to freedom for some, but it is not indispensable.

Perhaps the a better word is stress? Even if you know the results will be better than what you have now, it seems that he devil you know is better than the devil you don't for most people. Stress is not required, but it pops up during times of change (at least for me).

As always, disregard anything that sounds overtly crazy.

Metta,

Perry

[ghop]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

WISDOM=TROUBLE
INNOCENCE=BLISS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWHJk5g9DOE&feature=related[/video]]

... re=related

8)

[Stephanie]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

Perry, I find what you say to be spot on, so please don't doubt yourself! :wink:

Dosho, I'm not speaking from a position of authority at all. But I speak with passion and conviction about what I do know. And you are free to doubt whether I know what I think I know--you should do that, in my opinion--but that doesn't really matter. My faith and doubt are my own matter, yours are your matter.

I have had definitive experiences and turning points in my practice-life where certain delusions were dropped completely. Moments where a new clarity has emerged that has never gone away. I haven't had any definitive experience where I saw the "whole enchilada" and Everything Became Clear, but what I say isn't based on abstract theory either. Again, I'm not offended that you don't take my word for it, but hopefully you realize that there are 'fruits' of this practice even for the scruffier sitters among us

I believe that as a sangha we are all here to teach and learn from one another. I don't think we should have to have a special permission to speak about matters as we understand them. The teachers can correct us, we can correct one another (or just add to the mistake, in some cases :lol: ), but I don't think we need to wait until a particular time to be able to speak at all.

[Jinyu]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

Hi Stephanie!

I'm happy you clearly said that it was your understanding and you got the point when you say that everyone must have is one... I like the image of the Sangha being like stones polishing each other...
And that's what we do when exposing our little understandings to each others!Sometimes, people agree, sometimes teachers correct us... But for that we need people exposing their point of view, and bringing subjects to be discussed, and you do it soooo well!

Thank you for that!

I believe that as a sangha we are all here to teach and learn from one another. I don't think we should have to have a special permission to speak about matters as we understand them. The teachers can correct us, we can correct one another (or just add to the mistake, in some cases :lol: ), but I don't think we need to wait until a particular time to be able to speak at all.

Did someone say the opposite? :wink:

gassho,
Luis-Jinyu

[AlanLa]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

Does practicing moral behavior cultivate wisdom? Most likely so, as I think this is called practicing the Way.

Wow - if this is true I have missed the entire point of Zen. I thought (in Soto Zen) practicing the Way was zazen. Period. What some people call moral behavior might result from this practice, but the practice of (what some people would call) moral behavior certainly will not lead to enlightenment (defined as zazen in Soto).

If practicing the Way is no different from some preacher telling me how to behave, I could have picked a religion to follow (no, I obviously don't consider Zen a religion, although I will admit that all depends on your definition of religion).

Fair point. Substitute walking the Path, if you like. But the point I was trying to make is that I think you can gain in wisdom by practicing moral behavior. It is not a given, but I think it sure helps; moving on the Path towards moral behavior seems likely to cultivate (make more likely to grow) wisdom. On the flip side, I don't think it's possible to grow much in wisdom through taking a path towards immoral behavior. Argh, such dualities :twisted: :roll:

Again, in the grand scheme of things, does this not sound true? Doesn't moral behavior seem to coincide better with wisdom than immoral behavior? Doesn't a tendency to move towards more compassion sound more wise than a tendency to move towards dispassion, rudeness, cruelty, etc.? Is Kannon not an aspect of ultimate wisdom? Your head might be able to trick you into thinking otherwise, but I'm betting your gut will see through that trick. Doesn't this feel right in your gut?

And remember, nothing is perfect: no one, no voice, no choice to listen to a voice, no wisdom, no morality, no immorality. So what direction do you want to take? Who's voice out there in the wilderness seems wise to follow?

[Stephanie]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

Hi Stephanie!

I'm happy you clearly said that it was your understanding and you got the point when you say that everyone must have is one... I like the image of the Sangha being like stones polishing each other...
And that's what we do when exposing our little understandings to each others!Sometimes, people agree, sometimes teachers correct us... But for that we need people exposing their point of view, and bringing subjects to be discussed, and you do it soooo well!

Thank you for that!

Hi Luis! You're welcome! :wink: And thank you for your kind words, Luis. You manage to encourage me and keep me on my toes at the same time :wink: I agree completely with the metaphor of stones polishing each other (or potatoes washing each other, as Seung Sahn put it :lol: ). I need to have my own stupidities (I like using "little understandings" as a euphemism :lol: ) pointed out to me quite often :shock:

I believe that as a sangha we are all here to teach and learn from one another. I don't think we should have to have a special permission to speak about matters as we understand them. The teachers can correct us, we can correct one another (or just add to the mistake, in some cases :lol: ), but I don't think we need to wait until a particular time to be able to speak at all.

Did someone say the opposite? :wink:

gassho,
Luis-Jinyu

Well, I took Dosho's response to be indicating I was speaking with an undue tone of authority.

I find I have this problem a lot, that the way I express myself comes across as arrogant; but the feeling behind the words is not one of superiority, but passion and fierce commitment to this path. I am but a beginner--I truly believe this--and I still get caught up in my "little understandings" far too often not to be a fool a lot of the time, but I have experienced the falling away of delusions, and it is a tremendous thing when one drops even the tiniest delusion... this is why I began this practice, because I wanted to know what was true. That was really it--not wanting not to suffer any more, but to know, and understand, this business we find ourselves in the midst of. I know a lot of what I know is still only intellectual, and yet what I do know deep in my gut and heart... it's the only thing that keeps me from falling back into despair. I hear that whiny little story starting again, and recognize it: "Oh, this stupid thing," and let go, and move on. Never used to be able to do that.

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

[Fair point. Substitute walking the Path, if you like. But the point I was trying to make is that I think you can gain in wisdom by practicing moral behavior. It is not a given, but I think it sure helps; moving on the Path towards moral behavior seems likely to cultivate (make more likely to grow) wisdom. On the flip side, I don't think it's possible to grow much in wisdom through taking a path towards immoral behavior. Argh, such dualities :twisted: :roll:

Again, in the grand scheme of things, does this not sound true? Doesn't moral behavior seem to coincide better with wisdom than immoral behavior? Doesn't a tendency to move towards more compassion sound more wise than a tendency to move towards dispassion, rudeness, cruelty, etc.? Is Kannon not an aspect of ultimate wisdom? Your head might be able to trick you into thinking otherwise, but I'm betting your gut will see through that trick. Doesn't this feel right in your gut?

I would say I'm not taking a path towards either moral or immoral behavior. I'm taking a path towards enlightenment by practicing zazen. Whether that results in greater or lesser moral behavior (in the eyes of those who wish to judge such things) is irrelevant to me or my path. It appears to my unenlightened eyes that those that claim some piece of enlightenment tend to exhibit "moral" behavior, but I believe this is a result of enlightenment, not a cause of it. So I would disagree with your statement that moral behavior leads to wisdom (when equating wisdom and enlightenment).

[Jinyu]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

I find I have this problem a lot, that the way I express myself comes across as arrogant; but the feeling behind the words is not one of superiority, but passion and fierce commitment to this path.

I understand that! But maybe you are just misunderstood because you "speak" too well... I mean that you just say things in a way so personal and passionate way that from the "exterior" it can sometimes seem a bit arrogant... But I truly understand your point!

I hear that whiny little story starting again, and recognize it: "Oh, this stupid thing," and let go, and move on. Never used to be able to do that.

Isn't it a big part of our practice?
It reminds me when I was training in the Theravadan tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw... always nothing the same things... but finally seeing these same things again and again make a sort of shift in the way we react to these things... but not on these things themselves :wink:

gassho,
Luis-Jinyu

[AlanLa]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

I'm not equating wisdom with enlightenment, Craig. Morality and wisdom are a tangle enough without adding enlightenment into the mix, so forget enlightenment for a minute. Couldn't it be possible that by practicing moral behavior and seeing the results both in yourself and in others that it might lead toward wisdom (not the same as enlightenment in this sense)?

[Jinyu]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

And what if enlightenment begins here and now, by dropping all ideas of going somewhere or getting something...
Enlightenment of every moment for itself... ?
Personally, I need to get back to the cushion and stop thinking and reading so much!

See you on the cushion folks!

gassho,
Jinyu

[Dosho]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

Personally, I need to get back to the cushion and stop thinking and reading so much!

See you on the cushion folks!

It took until 11:42pm, but that's definitely the best idea I've heard all day.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Is morality the measure of wisdom?

I think that this question might be putting the cart before the horse. We like to talk about morality and proper behavior, sin and the like, but I think we may be missing something. I think when Jundo was saying that a realized person would be kind, gentle, etc. etc. I think what he was saying was that a truly realized person has dropped all discriminating thoughts, and lost their attachments to things. This leaves a person in his or her Buddha-nature, which if we are to believe in the teachings, would be a state in which you are in perfect accord with all things, places, peoples etc. This would be a state in which you could not help but to act kind, gentle, etc. In a place of satori, you would be able to clearly see what actions and words would be beneficial to all. Sometimes that might mean that, in order to be kind, we must be stern, in order to be gentle we must be stoic, but I don't think that it means that we can be unkind or harsh. I think that it is important to remember that we all have Buddha-nature, but its the things in life that we attach ourselves to that hide it from sight, and sometimes we can say, "This is my nature, this is who I am. I do not feel that I should have to be more this or less that to be more in accord with this practice." And maybe that's correct. Or, and I only postulate here because only you can know this for sure about yourselves, maybe that thought is the echo of your attachment to your ego. Upaya is appropriate means, only when it's appropriate. If you have a square peg and a round hole, you take out a knife and shave the corners - that's appropriate means. If you just try to take a sledgehammer and pound it in, that's just destructive.