Father Thomas Keating

[Stephanie]

Re: Father Thomas Keating

Oh, I don't disagree with you, Jundo, or Taigu, that Chet can step far beyond the line of propriety. But I'm not sure that Chet's advocacy of looking, inquiring, and seeing what is this is contrary to Soto Zen. I think there's a difference between pushing for kensho experiences and making a constant effort to orient oneself toward awakening and the truth. Chet has certainly helped me do that.

I would say calling a Zen lineage that utilizes both Rinzai and Soto practices "Risotto" in a dismissive tone goes beyond advocating for a particular teaching and practice style here at Treeleaf and extends further into a dismissal of other Zen teachers and lineages.

Which is the same ol' crap that's been going on in Zen from Day One, and hardly something that would bother me too much if it wasn't followed by advocacy for Christianity as a "different path up the same mountain." Total, unjustified double standard, and not a position I agree with at all. Christianity only takes a very select few to the same destination Zen does. For most people, religious belief is a way to stay asleep, not wake up. (That can certainly be true in Buddhism also.)

[Jundo]

Re: Father Thomas Keating

Hi Stephanie,

Some very interesting points raised here. Important.

Honestly, and most simply, I don't believe that questioning the concept of God as understood by followers of monotheistic traditions should be treated as rude in a zendo. The purpose of Treeleaf, as I understand it, is not primarily interfaith dialogue, but Zen practice. Sure, let's be respectful of one another, but let's not let our fear of offending someone get in the way of the mutual exploration of what's true and what isn't.

I agree with this very much. So long as one is respectful, and not dismissive in tone, of another's beliefs, we can discuss and question anything here. Our purpose is not interfaith dialogue. Yet when we do talk about beliefs, "respectful and not dismissive in tone, even when disagreeing" is the most important part of dialogue (something we all wrestle with sometimes!).

However, one can engage in interfaith dialogue and practice Shikantaza ... or one can have little interest in interfaith dialogue and practice Shikantaza. In fact, one can be an atheist, Catholic priest, agnostic, Baptist (from our standpoint anyway), Republican/Tory or socialist or apolitical, bus driver or sailor at sea and practice Shikantaza.

Imagine a room in which you are sitting Zazen. If the room is totally empty, you can sit Zazen there. If the room is not totally empty but has a table in it, you can still sit Zazen there. Same with a cosmos that does or does not have a God or creator. (in fact, our practice points at the fact that "chair" "empty" "god" "no god" and "you sitting" "room" are just names and judgments and divisions imposed by the human mind on the wholeness of "just what's there, whatever's there")

As I said, I am an agnostic myself (although I often refer to myself as a "mytic-agnostic")

viewtopic.php?p=37643#p37643

... but I think that people can find, in their own hearts, ways to build bridges between Buddhist doctrine and the theology of other religions.

viewtopic.php?p=38384#p38384

Now, on the other hand, the question of merging Shikantaza practice with other ways of meditation or Buddhism, even Zen Buddhism, is actually often trickier. That is because it is a question of METHOD! Our way is RADICAL, to-the-marrow's marrow NON-SEARCHING. One finds by giving up the hunt to fill what lacks ... thereby filling the hole inside that was never there. For that reason, it is not possible really to merge Shikantaza with practices seeking, even subtly, to change or escape this reality (which, strangely enough, is our Shikantaza method of changing and escaping samsara in a revolutionary way! Thus, for example, this week's book club reading on Master Keizan speaks very often of "attaining awakening" which, in our tradition, is attaining awakening to the fact that was just right here all along).

Thus, I feel closer to the spirit of Shikantaza when I read this, as posted by Father James, than when I read many descriptions of flavors of Buddhism meant to "get to enlightenment" or "reach nirvana" ...

"In order to arrive at having pleasure in everything, Desire to have pleasure in nothing.
In order to arrive at possessing everything, Desire to possess nothing.
In order to arrive at being everything, Desire to be nothing.
In order to arrive at knowing everything, Desire to know nothing."
--John of the Cross, 16th century

I might phrase it a little differently ... drop all desire to possess, to know, to be ...

Yet, yes ....SHIKANTAZA!

Gassho, Jundo

[Unmon]

Re: Father Thomas Keating

Our way is RADICAL, to-the-marrow's marrow NON-SEARCHING. One finds by giving up the hunt to fill what lacks ... thereby filling the hole inside that was never there. For that reason, it is not possible really to merge Shikantaza with practices seeking, even subtly, to change or escape this reality (which, strangely enough, is our Shikantaza method of changing and escaping samsara in a revolutionary way! Thus, for example, this week's book club reading on Master Keizan speaks very often of "attaining awakening" which, in our tradition, is attaining awakening to the fact that was just right here all along). ....SHIKANTAZA!

thank you

[CoreyW]

Re: Father Thomas Keating

Thank you for the post Taigu, and also thank you everyone else for your comments. I think it is always important to listen to the views of the people all over the world whether you agree with them or not. If we do not understand where others are coming from how can we know why we believe what we do.

gassho,
Corey

[AlanLa]

Re: Father Thomas Keating

Since I haven't had many profound thoughts of my own recently, I've been noting and copying them from others. Here is my edited take from kenshoschmensho (btw, who wrote that? no name on there I could find).

I was walking along the street one morning and happened to just kinda notice what the whole Buddhist philosophical system was all about.
…
[But that was not] a kensho experience. I have never had a kensho experience. I hope I never do. I've never come across anyone who claimed to have had one of those who could convince me it was anything worth experiencing.
…
[It's just that] if you practice zazen long enough there may come a time when you see through most of the philosophical problems you've held for most of your life.
…
[But the] only thing you understand when you solve your philosophical problems is that this is just this. That life is what it is, that you are what you are, that the universe is what it is. Get me? You can't even explain what the universe is. It just is what it is. That's it.
…
The main reason we miss it, though, might be that we're just too damned clever for our own good. Maybe "clever" isn't the best word. Perhaps "intellectual" is closer to the mark.

I get really turned off by this forum sometimes when it gets overly bogged down in philosophizing and intellectualizing. I get really turned on by this forum when it emphasizes the experiential nature of the dharma Path and we help people gently along that Path without excess philosophy and intellect. Splitting religious philosophical and intellectual hairs doesn't seem helpful to me, but sharing similar religious experiences does. So I liked the video and feel I experienced it in the spirit it was given.

Where's the balance between experience and philosophy/intellect? I can't explain that, but I do experience it sometimes, so that's what I go by. If I had to put it in words, I would say the balance is the middle way between the two, and we each need to find our own balance point. Too much emphasis on your personal experience is a ledge easy to fall off of, and the same goes for too much emphasis on philosophy/intellect. Sometimes people can be on both ledges at the same time, and then comes a double hard fall. The outcome of falling hurts, but the great thing about the process of falling is that you can pick yourself up and regain your balance, learning from the experience so as to be less likely to fall again in the future.

So I would encourage people to: (1) be aware of ledges! (2) when you find yourself on a ledge, step away from the ledge! (3) and move towards the middle way!

[Shogen]

Re: Father Thomas Keating

Taigu,
Thank you for the wonderful pointing to the Father Keating video. He does a terrific verbal presentation of "THIS" gassho gassho gassho zak