Zen lineage chart: Chinese and Japanese Zen ancestors

**Rich** · 07-18-2010, 12:09 PM

Re: Zen lineage chart: Chinese and Japanese Zen ancestors

Cool, thanks for the info. Same question for the Korean line.
/Rich

**Jundo** · 07-18-2010, 03:16 PM

Re: Zen lineage chart: Chinese and Japanese Zen ancestors

Hi Stephanie,

This subject came up as we started the current readings for the book club on Master Keizan's "Denkoroku".

The historical evidence is now clear: Much of the Lineage from Gautama Buddha up through and including the 6th Patriarch in China (Hui Neng) is almost entirely a fiction and paste job. Several of the links in the chain are wholly fictional, some were personages who had no particular connection to Zen, some lived centuries later or never would have met the person claimed as their teacher. Others were real persons (such as Bodhidharma), but the stories about them have been embellished beyond recognition.

Even the great legendary masters of China of the Tang Dynasty, most well known for the various Koan stories associated with them, probably were nothing like the persons depicted in those Koan stories, which were written decades or centuries after they lived.

There are several good books by scholars on the subject. I can recommend very highly ...

Seeing Through Zen by John McRae ...

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReview ... gh_zen.htm

Another book that is must reading for anyone interested in the early history of these things, and also on the origins of the whole "silent illumination vs. Koan introspection Zazen" Hoo Hah ... .

http://www.amazon.com/How-Zen-Became-En ... 0824832558

Another excellent book, but a bit drier ...

Fathering Your Father: The Zen of Fabrication in Tang Buddhism

http://www.amazon.com/Fathering-Your-Fa ... 061&sr=1-1

Here is a good article on Bodhidharma as a semi-fictional character ...

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Phi ... adigm.html

NOW, WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US? Well, the consensus, I believe, among most Zen teachers and students who have looked at the topic is ... even if the lineage is not literal, it is the something beyond words that matters. It is our practice here and now that is most vital. It stands for something beyond time, so it is not so important that these people really existed or not. It is rather like Moses may have not been a historical personage ... but, still, in our hearts we can feel "Let My People Go!".

Now, as to later history in Japan, the best books are still ...

Soto Zen in Medieval Japan by Prof, Bodiford

http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Japan-St ... ap_title_0

and for the later period, up until the 18th and 19th century ...

The Other Side of Zen: A Social History of Soto Zen Buddhism in Tokugawa Japan

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... _76&fsc=-1

So you asked ...

Are there no significant Soto teachers from that five hundred year window of time? I am very curious about what transpired in the lineage for the school where I seem to have found my spiritual home (Soto).

Oh, there were some wonderful teachers (Menzan basically formulated a lot of what we now take to be Soto tradition, and is controversial for that reason. Some people do not want to admit that he made a lot of our traditions that are now claimed to be older. For example, "Kinhin" was likely mostly his invention, and not something that really existed in its current form before him).

http://books.google.com/books?id=mUKopu ... in&f=false

Tosui and Ryokan are two folks who stand out in the centuries after Dogen and Keizan ...

http://www.amazon.com/Letting-Go-Master ... _lmf_tit_8

http://www.amazon.com/One-Robe-Bowl-Poe ... _lmf_tit_9

There were some other great teachers, although not necessarily translated into English. And there were a whole bunch of folks, the great majority really, who were more just temple priests catering to their flocks ... and not particularly known for anything they said or wrote.

As far as the Lineage here at Treeleaf, through Nishijima Roshi, you can see our whole lineage here.

http://www.treeleaf.org/articles/Treele ... neage.html

My Dharma Brother, Éric Rommeluère, who teaches in Paris, has been trying to research the whole line (with old temple records and ancient diaries and such) and is writing a small book on it ... but I have not seen the results of his research yet. However, most of the figures in the middle are but names ... just like my own great grandfathers and earlier are just names to me, if even that. We had a thread on the subject awhile back ...

viewtopic.php?p=33097#p33097

Gassho, Jundo

**Stephanie** · 07-18-2010, 03:39 PM

Re: Zen lineage chart: Chinese and Japanese Zen ancestors

Thanks... I missed some of the discussion as I jumped into the Transmission of the Light readings a few sections in. A couple of the books you mentioned look interesting.

What's interesting to me is not so much whether the teachings were transmitted one-to-one in an unbroken lineage--that's pretty easily filed under "myth"--but that this somewhat fabricated lineage chart we have is based more on history than I would have ever assumed. The fact that any of these people on the list were historical people at all is pretty interesting to me. And there's enough in the Indian ancestors section that one can see the skeleton of the "true lineage"--of the passing on of the teachings from generation to generation. Not in the mythic way described... but Ananda and Mahakasyapa were instrumental in passing on the Dharma, as were the teachers in Kanishka's court, and of course Nagarjuna, whose Mulamadhyamakakarika we're still studying today.

It would be interesting IMO to construct a fuller "lineage chart"... one that threw aside the idea of one-to-one transmission throughout the entire history of Buddhism, but actually looked at the people, teachers, and schools in each generation who carried on the teaching. I think the lineage chart gives a bit of a hint of that.

But this is all relevant to the Indian ancestors, easily the part of the lineage chart that is the most constructed. I'll have to do the research, but it seems the majority of the Chinese Chan teachers were historical people whose historical information was at least somewhat well recorded. I would be surprised if this effort to record biographical information about teachers in the lineage just stopped after 1350 and didn't resume until a couple of teaching generations ago. There's at least got to be some musty old documents in temple files somewhere... I am interested in seeing what Eric comes up with.

What's interesting about all of this to me is that the fiction, myth, and fanciful aspects of the lineage all seem to come out of the need to create a story of "patriarchal transmission," which certainly seems to have been a value rooted in culture. I think there is merit to this way of preserving the teachings but I also think there are problems. It places singular attention on one individual instead of a school or community. It creates and maintains all of these scandals we witness that naturally come out of so much power being concentrated in a single person.

I've read some interesting articles and arguments that women prefer learning and working in a non-hierarchical structure, whereas men prefer hierarchy. This screams from the history of Zen transmission and I've found it to be true in my own life. I learn better in groups or even from individuals I regard as peers and friends than from authority figures. When I think about how my practice has developed, I remember interactions with my fellow sangha members more significantly than even dokusan. And I like dokusan... but the reality has been for me that my learning (or un-learning, as it is in Zen) process happens better through ongoing dialogue and interaction, rather than submitting to one singular authority figure.

**Jundo** · 07-18-2010, 04:01 PM

Re: Zen lineage chart: Chinese and Japanese Zen ancestors

Originally posted by Stephanie

What's interesting about all of this to me is that the fiction, myth, and fanciful aspects of the lineage all seem to come out of the need to create a story of "patriarchal transmission," which certainly seems to have been a value rooted in culture. I think there is merit to this way of preserving the teachings but I also think there are problems. It places singular attention on one individual instead of a school or community. It creates and maintains all of these scandals we witness that naturally come out of so much power being concentrated in a single person.

I've read some interesting articles and arguments that women prefer learning and working in a non-hierarchical structure, whereas men prefer hierarchy.

A little off topic and early to discuss it ... but once we get through the "boys club" that is the Lineage as presented by Keizan (that will take awhile!!), I am leaning to our next book club selection being ...

Zen Women: Beyond Tea Ladies, Iron Maidens, and Macho Masters
This landmark presentation at last makes heard the centuries of the voices of Zen’s women. Through exploring the teachings and history of Zen’s female ancestors, from the time of the Buddha to ancient and modern female masters in China, Korea, and Japan, Grace Schireson offers us a view of a more balanced Dharma practice, one that is especially applicable to our complex lives, embedded as they are in webs of family relations and responsibilities, and the challenges of love and work.

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Women-Beyond- ... 086171475X

But don't you worry your pretty little head about that now. Taigu and I are men, so we will decide on the book. 8)

Gassho, J

**Stephanie** · 07-18-2010, 04:36 PM

Re: Zen lineage chart: Chinese and Japanese Zen ancestors

I actually had problems with that book, to the point I had to just stop reading it. In my opinion, the author has a clear agenda and I disliked her constant dismissing of the stories of female teachers in the lineage as being too masculinized. I thought it belittled and did a disservice to what few women teachers in Zen history that we have stories about. As a woman who enjoys being female yet who is drawn to things or acting in ways that our culture stereotypes as male or masculine, I don't think that I am somehow not an authentic female because of it. I respect and admire the stories of the tough Zen women and "iron maidens" that have gotten passed down through the generations. While some of the author's research was compelling, it was lost in the constant criticism of these stories as not truly representing women. I, for one, relate to these stories! But by the author's account I don't really count as a real woman so that doesn't matter.

So I consider "Zen Women" to be more of a feminist polemic... more fit for a Women's Studies class about theories of gender constructions in narrative histories... than any sort of record or reverential account of our female Zen ancestors. I sort of like to imagine one of these "iron maidens" whacking Grace Schireson over the head with a kyosaku.

I far prefer the book Women of the Way as a record of women's stories in the lineage. It includes early Indian Buddhist women ancestors but also includes many Chan and Zen female ancestors... without the annoying critical interpolations that bog down "Zen Women."

**chicanobudista** · 07-18-2010, 05:07 PM

Re: Zen lineage chart: Chinese and Japanese Zen ancestors

Originally posted by Stephanie

I far prefer the book Women of the Way as a record of women's stories in the lineage. It includes early Indian Buddhist women ancestors but also includes many Chan and Zen female ancestors... without the annoying critical interpolations that bog down "Zen Women."

I have that book! I found it by accident at a used book store.

I am not sure why it didn't get the coverage the other book did.

Zen lineage chart: Chinese and Japanese Zen ancestors

Zen lineage chart: Chinese and Japanese Zen ancestors

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment