Am I a nihilist?

[Jundo]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

We are not "atheists", as we do not see reality through nihilistic eyes, as merely cold, dead, chaotic, random and pointless, without guiding hand, system or path.

Sorry to go on a tangent here, and no disrespect meant... but I really do not like the way atheism is equated with nihilism, or coldness, or seeing life as random and pointless.

Atheism is merely the belief that (given current proof it is likely that, for "weak" or sensible atheism) God or gods do not exist. In itself, it says nothing about how we should lead our lives, or feel to be our personal purpose. The idea that without a God our lives are cold, dead, random, pointless, and we should be nihilistic is a complete misunderstanding, usually made by people who are not atheists themselves (or by people who are young enough to think that existential suffering is cool).

Hi Janna,

I am sorry for painting all atheists with a single brush.

Personally, I do not consider myself an "atheist," for "atheism" in my image is another belief and conclusion, often clung to too relentlessly (by some, not to paint all atheists one color again). I prefer to describe myself as a "mystical agnostic" (or "pragma-mystic") who tastes and sees something wonderful in this life, yet prefers not to impose too many names and limiting ideas upon that (and remains skeptical of many exotic ideas about "ultimate reality" that some impose to fill in the gaps in human understanding) and who just "lets that all be". For what is will be anyway! I have some very definite ideas and conclusions about some things (yes, Zen Practice lets one see reality in some wonderfully clear ways ... see below), but other things I keep my nose out of!

However, one could be a "Zen Buddhist" and be an atheist if one wanted I suppose, just as one can be a "Zen Buddhist" and Jewish, Christian, Tory or Labor, baker or candle stick maker at the same time.

Much of this is very similar to that wonderful short talk by Anshin Thomas that Taigu posted today ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2652

Anshin says "if we know, or think we know, that is probably not spirituality ... there is no fixed point ..." . That is one reason I often describe this practice as dancing. It is "knowing" the fluid movement and freedom of this ever changing dance with reality ... not a fixed and rigid certainty about how things are and what they mean. Some teachers in the Kwan Um school like to say "only keep don't know mind" ...

I am an agnostic ... I have my reasons to doubt overly detailed religious explanations of how the universe ticks. But I don't know. My Practice does not depend on knowing or not knowing,

What is more, surprisingly, many "answers" (or, at least, dropping of pointless questions) result from this practice ... There are clear and satisfying answers, but not necessarily "answers" as we usually expect them ... Please have a look here if you have a moment, part of a series of threads on "Jundo Tackles the Big Questions" ...

For now, I just want to address your main question: "Does Satori provide the answer to the ‘big questions’?"

Our Practice provides some very specific (and wonderful) answers to some 'big questions'. For example, Buddhism provides very clear guidance for and understanding of the origins of human suffering in this life. The "Four Noble Truths". for example, provide a formula that effectively describes the sickness and provides the medicine for its treatment or cure. (More about that here: http://www.shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=15344).

Our Practice provides some very wonderful answers to other 'big questions' by instructing us to drop the questions as meaningless. Some questions are as pointless as our asking 'how many angels can gather on the head of a pin' or 'what color are the rabbits that live on the moon'. An example of such a question may be "where do we 'go' when we die, and where did we 'come from' before we were born" (I will talk about that in another posting later this week).

Hand in hand with the above, many questions we regularly ask may just be phrased poorly, biased by our narrow, anthropocentric human understanding. An example of that may be "why do 'bad things' happen in the world". When we change the way the question is asked, answers begin to present themselves (I will talk about that too in the coming days). Hitting the "reset button' on so many of our misguided questions are what most of those old Koans are on about, by the way.

And sometimes, Buddhism provides no answer to some 'big questions' (although that may be a kind of 'answer' too!). One such question may be whether or not there is actually a 'God' in the Judeo-Christian sense (and whether, for example, Jesus was 'His Son'). To such questions, our Zen Practice allows us to believe what we wish, or to take no stand at all. I often say:

Is there a "God named 'Jehovah'"? .......... If so, live human life, do as you can not to harm, fetch wood and carry water.

Is there not some "God named 'Jehovah'"? .......... If not, live human life, do as you can not to harm, fetch wood and carry water.

viewtopic.php?p=16814#p16814

we are animals, yes, but I also believe that we are animals of the human species, and this species (like many others) is capable of both war and peace, violence and compassion.

'Ultimately' we are the universe, (what else could we/the universe be?) so if we care about anything, the universe cares.
gassho,
Monkton

Taigu and I have given talks a few times on, for example ... Kannon or Jizo as love and compassion (and the same can be said about whether the "devil" really exists or not in the damage that people do) ....

Actually, I had a hard time, for many years, incorporating into my practice many figures such as Kannon and Jizo ...

I have some cautions I would offer both to people who say (a) these things do exist in a concrete way, and those folks who say (b) they do not. While both those extremes may be correct (only the universe knows for sure, and I remain an open minded mystic-skeptic), I have come to see "them" as archtypes, representing real characteristics of human life and (since we are just the universe) thus the universe.

In other words, in a nutshell: When we feel in our hearts and act upon love and compassion, thereby love and compassion exists as a real, concrete aspect of the world which our hearts and acts create. And since, in our view, there is no "inside" or "outside" ultimately, what is inside you is just as much "the universe" and concrete reality as the moon, gravity and the stars. That is "Kannon", in that way a real and concrete aspect and 'force' of the world.

I believe in Buddhist Heavens and Hells, Buddhas (apart from the historical Shakyamuni) and Boddhisattvas, and all the rest of the Buddhist cosmology, in much the spirit of that famous essay ... "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus". Did you ever read that? A little girl wrote to a newspaper editor, back in 1897, saying that she'd heard from friends that there is no Santa Claus. "Is it true?", she asked. Part of the response ran like this ...

What? You don't believe in Santa Claus?

GassHo Ho Ho, Jundo

VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Hi Stephanie,

I don't feel like anyone or anything "Ultimate" in the universe cares.

'Ultimately' we are the universe, (what else could we/the universe be?) so if we care about anything, the universe cares.
gassho,
Monkton

Sort of. Smacks of the anthropic principle.

Chet

[Jaana]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Jundo,

thank you for the reply. I think ultimately I completely agree with you, and you speak very wisely (again).

I used to call myself an "agnostic" rather than "atheist", and stress the "spiritual" side of myself, but then I started to feel that that was not completely honest and true. I do not believe God (*) exists, full stop. If we discuss the existence of God, that's pretty much everything I have to say on the topic, in all honesty. I am an atheist, and calling myself something else did no longer feel honest.

I hope I do not "cling" to the idea of atheism, though. There is a separation between strong atheism (I am sure gods don't exist) and weak atheism (given current proof, I think gods as described by religions do not exist), and I subscribe to the latter. You could call me an agnostic atheist - agnosticism, originally, actually refers to the belief that the existence of gods is not directly knowable. One can, then, be a Christian agnostic (and indeed the Christian religions often emphasize faith even when you cannot know) as well as an atheist one.

(*) God, as described by religions as an outside entity. Obviously, experiences on which people base their hypothesis of a God exist. I do not mean to put down anyone's spiritual life.

[monkton]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Sort of. Smacks of the anthropic principle.

I was thinking more of pages 14 and 15 in my copy of 'Opening the Hand of Thought', the section beginning, "Whether we realise it or not we are always living out life that is connected to everything in the universe", and ending with, "I can't stress enough how essential it is to look very, very carefully at this universal self that runs through everything in the universe. You live together with your world. Only when you thoroughly understand this will everything in the world settle as the self pervading all things."

Maybe that does express some aspect of the anthropic principle, more than a 5 minute burn through the Wikipedia 'Anthropic Principle' entry while slurping on my coffee has revealed to me, but anyway, Uchiyama and Taigu's talks about Kannon were what was actually at the back of my mind.

gassho,
Monkton

[disastermouse]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

'We are the universe' sounds different to me than 'the universe is us' for some reason.

In my experience of it, both 'I am the universe' AND 'I am but a speck in the totality' seemed utterly true and not in conflict. With the Anthropic principle, or solipsism in general, only one of these views is prominent.

Chet

[Silva]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Hi Steph,

I don't know if the universe or anybody cares, but I know it's certainly affected by our actions. Contrary to what has been said here I believe our actions even the smallest make a big difference and do change things. I think, and i'll go as far as say that I know from experience, that it makes a big difference to a mouse, or a flea, or a carrot,or a bacteria, or a human being to be killed or not to be killed, and that the effects either way affect the universe in ways we can't even fathom.
I hope my english is clear enough, but Jundo touched this subject recently in his Interdependence day post.
Not killing the mouse makes already a big difference to the mouse!

I also think that there's a difference between care and guilt. I believe, although I eat vegetables, fish and meat that it matters to be conscious or care about the implications of taking life, assuming my responsabilities towards life because I am life.
I don't intend as yet to become a vegetarian, living in a rural area Iv'e raised and killed chickens and rabbits to eat.
Why should one assume that a carrot is less alive than a rabbit?
All is equally life, so am I, I'm cheered by the thought that one day my rotting body or ashes may feed a carrot that will then feed a rabbit, that will then feed something else...
Now I'm wandering from the point perhaps and sound like the old woman who swallowed a fly!

In a nutshell I believe the universe is affected by the wink of a flea and that it matters!
And thus I agree with Monkton's quote:

I was thinking more of pages 14 and 15 in my copy of 'Opening the Hand of Thought', the section beginning, "Whether we realise it or not we are always living out life that is connected to everything in the universe", and ending with, "I can't stress enough how essential it is to look very, very carefully at this universal self that runs through everything in the universe. You live together with your world. Only when you thoroughly understand this will everything in the world settle as the self pervading all things."

gassho,

Sylvie

[Stephanie]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Of course it matters to the mouse... but what doesn't matter to the mouse, is whether or not it contaminates my food, or makes me ill. So why should I privilege the mouse's life and well-being over my life and well-being?

I went on for years putting everyone and everything else ahead of me. I only knew how to be in relationships where I was the giver. I had horrible guilt about my imperfections and was always striving to be better. But most of that was delusion. I had to go through some terrible suffering in relationships to wake up to the falseness of the story I was telling myself in the guise of "spiritual wisdom." Since then, I've found a much better balance. I still serve others and work to alleviate suffering in my work and my personal relationships (when appropriate) but I don't have any reservations or terrible anguish when there's a mouse in my apartment that needs to go or when I need to look at someone and say, "Bye," because they're a user who is poisoning my life. Let people hang themselves on the ends of their own ropes, I say.

I share in the perspective that "because we care, the universe cares," because we're part of it. What I mean is that I no longer have any sense of a guiding force or intelligence, personified or not, that cares what we do. It's totally up to us. I mean, I can't know that for sure, but I don't have any evidence or sense that our morals come from something "beyond" our simple nature as human beings. My affinity and appreciation for nature documentaries and time spent in nature has convinced me that this planet is a harsh and ruthless place. I love animals but don't anthropomorphize them. I know dolphins aren't smiling at us and can and will violently attack humans, just as they will also help humans out sometimes, for example. I love dogs but am not stupid enough to reach out to pet a cocker spaniel I don't know, because I might get my hand bit off. I'm not into the lion lying down with the lamb as a utopian vision because I have nothing wrong with the lion eating the lamb.

I still have the same sensitivity to suffering (well, I'm a little more numb these days, but for different reasons, and it's a different story), and feel the same joy at being part of its alleviation. I love the work I do as a social worker and the moments where clients experience relief or freedom or repair in their lives carry me through all the annoying workplace politics and paperwork. I like helping animals out when I can. Seeing a person or animal suffering gives me an almost physical pain in my heart. So the loss of my guiding ideals or sense of God or a God-like force in the universe hasn't caused me to become indifferent to suffering. But it's taken away the sense of guilt that used to come along with it. What it's changed is that when I see a mouse in my apartment that looks sick I don't feel guilty about trapping it, though I still feel a bit sad about it.

This is what I mean by "Am I a nihilist?" I don't mean "Am I a nasty, cold, uncaring person?" Because I know I'm not, even if I wish I was a little less numb. What I mean is, "Does my lack of belief in any kind of greater meaning or purpose encoded in the universe qualify me to be described by the term 'nihilist'?" I don't think there's anything wrong with the natural order that terribly needs to be changed by us, but I also respect and admire the human effort to create a more functional, kind, compassionate society where people of various strengths and talents are allowed to flourish, instead of just only the most ruthless and physically strong.

I embrace the Precepts, I just don't think that there is something that punishes us for not following them. I think they reflect and are expressive of wisdom. I believe in karma as cause/effect but I don't believe that a cosmic parent punishes us in the afterlife for our transgressions in this one. So I think if it's a matter of 'my life vs. someone else's' there's not necessarily virtue in giving up my life out of 'selflessness.' I still admire the stories of the saints who did just that, but I don't think it's necessary and in some cases may even be a little stupid. Why let a criminal kill me due to my belief in the ideal of nonviolence, instead of defending myself and killing the criminal instead?

I mean, we usually don't find ourselves in these situations, so it doesn't really matter that much. But I used to be really into Tolstoy and his teachings on nonviolence--that to be nonviolent is to experience the triumph of the conscience and to refuse to let anyone else force us into compromising our conscience. I think that's really brave, to stand up and be willing to die because you don't want to compromise your morals. But on the other hand... if morals are human constructions only, are they really worth dying for? Might it be best to live another day and do real good in the world, than die for the sake of an idea? Might it be better to not get a disease from a mouse than wring my hands over not wanting to kill it?

[Jaana]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

"Does my lack of belief in any kind of greater meaning or purpose encoded in the universe qualify me to be described by the term 'nihilist'?"

Ok, to answer this: yes, and no.

Because of being the information junkie that I am, I actually checked the definition. Turns out that nihilism can mean various things (in addition to the everyday usage of "a cold person who likes to pretend that nothing matters").

It can mean that you believe that there is no "higher" purpose or meaning to our lives beyond ourselves (existential nihilism). I suppose in that sense you are a nihilist. It can also mean that you do not think moral values matter, because of them in the end being "nothing but the products of our minds" (moral nihilism). I do not think you are a nihilist in that sense, as I think you believe that the experiences of minds still matter and are meaningful, even if not in a "higher" supernatural sense? There's also various other definitions and meanings of "nihilism" and you match some of them but not all. Wikipedia on Nihilism is a good starter for reading if you really want to.

That's not really important, though, I think. The question is, what did the person calling you a nihilist mean by nihilist, and why did they thing you are one? That will tell you more about yourself and them than any seeking for a definition.

[Stephanie]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Your post was actually very helpful, Janna, thank you. I'm an information junkie too :wink:

It can mean that you believe that there is no "higher" purpose or meaning to our lives beyond ourselves (existential nihilism). I suppose in that sense you are a nihilist.

Interesting...

It can also mean that you do not think moral values matter, because of them in the end being "nothing but the products of our minds" (moral nihilism). I do not think you are a nihilist in that sense, as I think you believe that the experiences of minds still matter and are meaningful, even if not in a "higher" supernatural sense?

Yes, this would be correct.

That's not really important, though, I think. The question is, what did the person calling you a nihilist mean by nihilist, and why did they thing you are one? That will tell you more about yourself and them than any seeking for a definition.

Well, yes. The reason it interested me was that while I hadn't before come up with the term "nihilist" to describe my condition, I have been mulling over what it is and how it is that so many of the ideals that used to be precious to me have just fallen away. I lack a belief system or moral framework to guide my actions... a prospect that used to terrify me. But now it's not so bad. And I find, just as you articulated beautifully above, that I still have a moral sensibility without recourse to a "higher supernatural sense."

This is brave new territory for me, and it's fascinating and scary and wondrous all at the same time. To finally be able to say, "I don't have to believe in anything any more. So what is true?" To be able to say, "Maybe no one or nothing other than other people, just as deluded and with just as many self-serving preferences as me, cares what I do," and see if it changes how I think, feel, or act. The conclusion so far: not much. There are some things I will do without guilt or hesitation that I used to feel guilty about, like having days where I don't give to the beggar on the street, or killing a mouse--but for the most part, there's no difference. The same things still move my heart, it still brings me just as much joy to see and help create the conditions for the joy of others. It still pains me to see others suffer.

It's very freeing, to realize you don't have to believe in anything--in terms of believing in a "higher" purpose or reason for what you do--to seek wisdom, be kind, and find the experience of life to be worthwhile.

[Jaana]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

If I learned something from my reading up on nihilism, it is that I will never ever use that word to describe myself or anyone else, because it has so many meanings and connotations that it is about 100 % guaranteed to be misinterpreted.

I am sort of in the same boat with you, I think. The reason why I am exploring zazen and "Zen Buddhism" currently is that I have a very "materialistic" worldview (I think the universe is what it is and there's no higher power or any such thing) but I do not think that renders things meaningless - actually quite the opposite, like I said above. I would like to write some sort of an "Atheist Prayerbook" on these thoughts one day, actually. Problem is that the thoughts are not very clear yet and the more I explore, the less words mean.

The way you can go is not the real way
The name you can say is not the real name
Heaven and Earth begin in the nameless
Name is the mother of the Ten Thousand Things
(Tao Te Ching, trans. Ursula LeGuin, quoted from memory)

All models are wrong, but some are useful.
(One of my teachers of statistics - unfortunately I forget who.)

[Stephanie]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

I would like to write some sort of an "Atheist Prayerbook" on these thoughts one day, actually.

This would be awesome, you should totally do it

[Jaana]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

I would like to write some sort of an "Atheist Prayerbook" on these thoughts one day, actually.

This would be awesome, you should totally do it

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Jundo]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Links to a couple more "Tackles the Big Questions" threads that may be worth looking at ...

I think that, since I have an oar in my hand, I was meant to row. If you were to press me, I would say that it is no accident, not in the least, that I am in a boat, alive, self-aware, with an oar in hand. In other words, since we are alive, I think that we were placed here to live, we were meant to live. I feel that in my heart. So, I row and row.

But, if it is all random and meaningless ... still, I row and row. No difference. Each stroke of the oar, like a step up the mountain, is reason enough. Beautiful enough, all on its own. So, I row and row, complete and fulfilled. Thus:

A - If there is a God, and if she had wanted us to know the details, she could have told us much more clearly (but she did not) ... so, I row row row.
B - If there is a God, but the details are too hard for a human mind to grasp ... I row row row.
C- If there is a God, and he did tell us the details (in the Koran, Bible, Upanishads or other old book), but I am just too closed minded to see it ... still, I row row row ... trying to live as best I can.
D - If there is no "God", but some other mechanism at work that uses us for purposes all its own ... I row row row
E - If there is no God or mechanism, and no details ... I row row row.
F - Whatever ... I row row row

Everything is "manifesting for a reason" (to borrow what you think Suzuki Roshi said) ... whether or not there is a "reason" apart from the manifesting itself.

If you were asking me to tell you what I think I sense, it is something like A,B or D ... not C or E. But, also I sense that it just does not matter, and I do not care.

In each case, all is fulfilled and complete.

Am I saying too much?

viewtopic.php?p=17297#p17297

I believe that Zen Practice can let one perceive that all of life is sacred, from the great mountains to the smallest grain of dust. Whether it is all some "God" or not does not really matter ... for that dust would be sacred merely for being the dust. Each damn mosquito biting you on that river is divine.

Stop seeing the dust grains and mosquitoes as smaller in size than your image of an infinite "God". Then, what is there to compare them?

...

Does a sailor demand that the river give him the exact sailing conditions that the sailor demands? Does the sailor tell the weather what to be each day, or how strong the current? Does the sailor demand that the river have a certain source and end? Or does the sailor merely sail the river with what is, where he is, just as it is?

viewtopic.php?p=17147#p17147

Why does the sun rise? Why does the wind blow?

Do the sun and wind each ask themselves such questions? Or do they just shine and gust?

Does the absence of an answer "why" make the sun's warmth on your shoulders, and the cool breeze on your cheek, any less real?

In other words, you were born ... for whatever reason or no reason at all. You were born, that is a fact. So, shine ... LIVE!


viewtopic.php?p=16840#p16840

Gassho, J

[Jaana]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Thank you, Jundo! Very helpful.

I guess the main realization of the Atheist Prayerbook would be your rowing example: that whether you believe that there is or isn't a God, sun still rises and sets, wind still blows, rain still falls, the mountains stand and the grass grows, humans care and suffer. Experience is not diminished by your belief or lack there-of into a particular origin, unless you choose to interpret it that way.

Like you say:

Does the absence of an answer "why" make the sun's warmth on your shoulders, and the cool breeze on your cheek, any less real?

[disastermouse]

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Thank you, Jundo! Very helpful.

I guess the main realization of the Atheist Prayerbook would be your rowing example: that whether you believe that there is or isn't a God, sun still rises and sets, wind still blows, rain still falls, the mountains stand and the grass grows, humans care and suffer. Experience is not diminished by your belief or lack there-of into a particular origin, unless you choose to interpret it that way.

Like you say:

Does the absence of an answer "why" make the sun's warmth on your shoulders, and the cool breeze on your cheek, any less real?

At the risk of self-aggrandizement, I'll say that I'm rather fond of saying, "Reality doesn't care what you believe."

Chet