Am I a nihilist?

**Jundo** · 07-06-2010, 02:12 AM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Hi Stephanie,

I am not sure if you are nihilisitic (although your loving heart shows you are really not) ... but Buddhists for a couple of thousand years have bent over backwards to emphasize that "Buddhism" is not "nihilisim". Just because we speak of "emptiness" that is not "nothing" ... just because we speak of "no goal" that does not mean there is not a lovely dance.

Nishijima Roshi, and countless other teachers, say that Buddhism is a positive, even optimistic philosophy (despite all the talk of "suffering", the real focus is not that ... but "Liberation"). For example, when we drop thoughts, what remains is not an empty nihilistic hole, but peace, freedom and fertile possibility!

I tried to capture this in a couple of things I wrote ... especially this ...

[quote]
Gratitude Trust & A Willingness to Yield

We are not "theists", for we do not ultimately require or cling to a particular 'god' or 'gods' to run the show. (That's not to say that we can't if we wish, and one can be a Zen Buddhist or Zennist while a Christian, Muslim, Jew or the like. We can. We neither require a "god", nor push any god away.).

We are not "atheists", as we do not see reality through nihilistic eyes, as merely cold, dead, chaotic, random and pointless, without guiding hand, system or path. (Again, one might combine Zen practice with such an outlook, but it might make one's practice something cold and dead in result).

I sometimes compare our attitude to that of innocent babes with a deep trust in this source and world that birthed us, that feeds us and which somehow allows us air to breathe. Sure, it is not a perfect place as we might always wish it to be (and certainly, if I were in charge of its making, I might choose to do things a bit differently), but it is an amazing place and a miracle that we are here. Do you know all that was involved in allowing that to be, in allowing you to be ... from the stars ... to the flowers and trees ... every twist and turn of history and natural conditions that allowed you to be?

No, as the spring time comes following the winter, and life returns ... I say that we are grateful to that which allows it all to be, and us to be. Thank you.

(read more here)

Gratitude Trust & A Willingness to Yield - Sit-A-Long Archive 2007-2009

http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/archive/2009/04/gratitude-trust-a-willingness-to-yield.html

As well, I do not know if there are literal "heavens" and "hells" which await us after we die, but I have seen people create real bits of heaven and hell in this life, for themselves and those near them, by their actions.

And this below ... trying to describe "emptiness" as 'The Dance' ... 'The Dancing' ... just 'Dancing' ...

Page not found – Treeleaf Zendo

http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=36135#p36135]viewtopic.php?p=36135#p36135

Gassho, J

**Stephanie** · 07-06-2010, 02:38 AM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

I like these posts/teachings and find them beautiful, Jundo.

To use the language of your "gratitude, trust" post: I see life as "random and pointless, without [a] guiding hand, system or path," but I also feel a deep trust in the way things are, and a sense of the miraculous about life.

Life does feel like a "dance" to me. And what I most like about the dance is not knowing who the next dance partner will be or what the next musical selection will be. I feel a kinship with the early Taoists that the best life is lived in harmony with the Tao, which is accomplished through noninterference. I feel like I can relate to or understand what a lot of theist mystics have said when they have talked about surrendering to the will of God... I realize that life is not in my control and that this is not sad or scary, but beautiful. The dance is more graceful when something other than me is leading the dance. I just don't think that "something other" necessarily has a will, intention, or plan.

I don't feel like anyone or anything "Ultimate" in the universe cares. That sounds sad, maybe, but I don't feel so sad about it any more. I'm not sure it matters. Human beings care and can thus make a caring world. And the lack of a code woven into the fabric of the universe frees us from lives of guilt and superstition... we can just live our lives in the world we find ourselves in. We don't need the hand of God to smite us into obedience. We can be kind and good and make a good world without God and without the universe caring at all about it.

**disastermouse** · 07-06-2010, 02:50 AM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

If you were really a nihilist, you'd likely be unconcerned with the answer to that question. /funny

Chet

**ghop** · 07-06-2010, 03:40 AM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Stephanie,

It would stupid for me to ignore this. But not as stupid
as the comments I made. I am sorry. That doesnt'
matter. But I am. I admit I got carried away. And I'm
not trying to save face by writing this. I think I may
have shown my bad side. Maybe everything I hurled at
you was just issues that I myself am questioning about
myself. I was raised in a THICK Protestant environment.
The things I was told as a child, you don't easily overcome.
After the divorce, I moved in with my parents while trying
to get back on my feet. I had a small Buddha statue that
I kept on a table next to my bed. One day I came home
and my father had put a pear of men's underwear over it.
He said it was the reason for all my bad luck and I was going
to hell if I didn't get things right. By "right" I took it to mean
stop worshiping idols. I was very serious in church at one time.
I felt called to be a minister. Then I committed adultery. Typical,
you are probably saying. But it wrecked my life. More importantly,
and much more importantly than "loosing my salvation," I lost
my daughter's love and respect. Only in the past year have I
begun to get that back. I have gone through alot to "fix" my
problems. Admitting that I am an alcoholic is one of the steps.
If I didn't have heroes I'd still be drinking. If I didn't believe that
human beings have the power to change their lives, even change
the world, I'd be lost. I still belive in God. But like a growing
child, whose understanding of their parents evolves with age,
so too is my understanding of God. But that's just me. And for me.
I'm sorry to have tried to pull you over to my boat. I don't think God
punishes people for killing. I used to. I also thought he punishes
adulterers and alcoholics. He doesn't have to. We do a good job of
punishing ourselves. I sometimes feel the "old fear" coming back,
about leaving the church, about practicing buddhism, etc. I know
these are just thoughts. I am sorry for trying to take your opinion
away from you. I'm going on and on and none of this really makes
sense. I just feel bad and am not sure if I'm trying to make you
feel better or just myself.

Originally posted by Stephanie

I believe that killing and violence are parts of
the natural order.

If we were animals, yes. I don't feel this is a healthy view. That
we have the urge and the ability to resist violence, that we have
the power to choose to do good, to love, proves that these things
need not be. Just like the fact that you are searching yourself in
this matter proves that you are not a nihlist. Really it just proves
that I am an ass for calling you one.

gassho

**ghop** · 07-06-2010, 03:42 AM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Originally posted by ghop

One day I came home
and my father had put a pear of men's underwear over it.

Jeez. Really? A "pear of men's underwear..." ??? The fruit?
Sorry. I meant PAIR.

:wink:

**Stephanie** · 07-06-2010, 04:11 AM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Greg, you are a complicated and interesting man, and seem to easily fall into worry you have caused offense when you haven't, which shows that all of your emotional productions of guilt about feeling like a bad person are misplaced.

Your "nihilist" comment didn't hurt my feelings. It was very thought provoking and useful. I may be a nihilist, actually. I don't know. I don't really care one way or another--all I care about is that I'm being honest, and truthful.

What I've learned is that I don't have to believe in a greater meaning or preordained purpose to experience a sense of harmony with "the universe" or whatever other term that awkwardly gets pasted at the end of these statements about 'the matter of life and death.'

I deeply respect the journey that you've been on, and continue on. From my side and point of view, I don't think the beliefs and ideals and heroes are necessary. I think you'd surprise yourself at how little justification you need to live a good life.

That was one of my points about killing... I've found that a religio-moral justification is not required to practice a peaceful way of life. The lack of belief in a strict ontological and moral code woven into the universe has made me feel less guilty and compulsive about following a particular code, but hasn't really changed my behavior that much. I generally prefer to be kind. Sometimes I'm unkind, and I don't beat myself up about it as much as I used to--that's really the only difference, how much guilt I feel when I 'stray'--but if I see someone hurting, my natural inclination is still to want to offer some sort of relief. As stated before... sometimes not. But more often, yes.

And I don't take as much crap off of people as I used to, which actually makes me less irritable and mean. I shoot straight--and somehow, this seems to deescalate things more quickly than my past tendency to be simpering. I'll tell someone I think they're being stupid but I'm also willing to talk with them about it. This is one of the things I'm grateful to New York for teaching me--how to care about my neighbor and try to help them out while still telling them they're being stupid when I think they're being stupid. While also remaining open to the possibility I'm the one being stupid. The point being you don't have to be a fastidious perfect saint with lovely measured language to be a "good person." All you have to do is to care about the other person you're talking to, at least on the level of considering that their perspective and happiness is as valid and valuable as yours.

I've found that all the stuff I desperately thought I needed to live a sane life was just a bunch of props I could have discarded a long time ago. The drama of the guilt and the searching and the redemption can be compelling, but it's unnecessary. So much guilt and gnashing of teeth for you over... sex. "Adultery." I sincerely hope you aren't beating yourself up over that any more, it's just pointless suffering. By a good person whose parents and religion made him feel like he was "bad." I say fuck 'em and their opinions, it's your caring heart and what you choose to do every day that really matters. Only you know.

Embracing the love I have in this moment, listening to and acting from it as best I can, is where goodness lies for me.

**Jaana** · 07-06-2010, 09:35 AM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

We are not "atheists", as we do not see reality through nihilistic eyes, as merely cold, dead, chaotic, random and pointless, without guiding hand, system or path.

Sorry to go on a tangent here, and no disrespect meant... but I really do not like the way atheism is equated with nihilism, or coldness, or seeing life as random and pointless.

Atheism is merely the belief that (given current proof it is likely that, for "weak" or sensible atheism) God or gods do not exist. In itself, it says nothing about how we should lead our lives, or feel to be our personal purpose. The idea that without a God our lives are cold, dead, random, pointless, and we should be nihilistic is a complete misunderstanding, usually made by people who are not atheists themselves (or by people who are young enough to think that existential suffering is cool).

The lack of God does not mean that the world does not exist, it does not mean that humans don't exist. It merely means that there is no purpose given to me from an all-knowing outsider. I still love, I still suffer. The mountain is still beautiful and the rain still cold. The miracle of life is equally wondrous when looked at through science - if not more so, when we truly realize it is a mystery, not something made by reason. The puzzle of suffering is as heartbreaking without a God - if not more so, when we cannot assume a master plan.

Atheism does not equal lack of belief in life.

**JohnsonCM** · 07-06-2010, 12:17 PM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Greg,

Listen. People like your parents view their viewpoint as "right" and that yours is wrong. This is something that we all have to live with on various levels. It is difficult to go against what you've been taught to be correct, and, to a point, that is one of the purposes of our practice. Buddha said:

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

He also said:

"I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act."

If the faith that you were brought up in makes sense after careful evaluation and is to the good and benefit of all beings, then by all means, accept it and live it. If it is not, I believe that it is God's wish that we find something that makes sense. I often have a mental picture of Jesus, Mohammed, Elija, and yes even Buddha, sitting around some celestial table appologizing to each other for the conduct of their worshipers. People are the ones who make religion have the peril of fire and damnation for non-compliance. That fear should not be a part of the decision one makes for either following or disregarding one faith over another, it should be personal. As to the other part of your statement. We all have demons. I, too, struggle with an alcohol dependancy issue, which I am working to eliminate from my life. I believe with the advent of my taking jukai this year, I will have completely gotten rid of it. I have an anxiety disorder that I medicate with doctor prescribed drugs, but I have also self medicated with alcohol for years now. But, like you, I have come to a place where this is no longer acceptable. Did we both "fall off the wagon" for a while, yes. Have we done things we are not proud of? Sure. But are we bad people for it? No, not at all. We would be bad people and bad Buddhists if we never saw the negative of it, and never decided to work toward a better us. You have realized that the path you were on was a path of self destruction, and you have put a stop to it. You are here, practicing, trying to work through your issues. You said that "if I didn't have heroes, I'd still be drinking." I think that it's time you looked at all you have done, and realize that you ARE a hero.

**Jaana** · 07-06-2010, 12:31 PM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Greg, Stephanie;

related to what you both said and my comment on atheism above, I think you are sort of both right. Violence and killing are part of the natural order. Denying that would require one to be completely blind and deaf. However, wishing that you do not need to resort to violence is also part of the natural order. Only if you make a distinction between "man" and "nature", or try to separate "godly" from "wordly" you need to try and pick one or the other. I believe (as an atheist) that we are animals, yes, but I also believe that we are animals of the human species, and this species (like many others) is capable of both war and peace, violence and compassion. Neither is "unnatural", or more natural than the other. They just are. It is equally in our nature to be compassionate and loving than it is to be violent and uncaring. And it is in our nature to choose which we want to be, too. Choosing one or the other is not going contrary to "our nature" or "the natural order". It's just choosing.

**Stephanie** · 07-06-2010, 01:22 PM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Originally posted by Jaana

Greg, Stephanie;

related to what you both said and my comment on atheism above, I think you are sort of both right. Violence and killing are part of the natural order. Denying that would require one to be completely blind and deaf. However, wishing that you do not need to resort to violence is also part of the natural order. Only if you make a distinction between "man" and "nature", or try to separate "godly" from "wordly" you need to try and pick one or the other. I believe (as an atheist) that we are animals, yes, but I also believe that we are animals of the human species, and this species (like many others) is capable of both war and peace, violence and compassion. Neither is "unnatural", or more natural than the other. They just are. It is equally in our nature to be compassionate and loving than it is to be violent and uncaring. And it is in our nature to choose which we want to be, too. Choosing one or the other is not going contrary to "our nature" or "the natural order". It's just choosing.

I agree.

I used to believe that violence was "wrong" and that there was some absolute code or meaning in the universe that reflected that, and it was our human destiny to totally overcome violence, etc.

I still prefer the peaceful way but I no longer believe the above. I'm not as adamantly and ideologically anti-war as I used to be, though I believe we've mostly gotten past the point where we should be having wars at all. I believe we should have better solutions by now.

I also agree that atheism is not the same as nihilism. I wouldn't really describe myself as an "atheist" or even an "agnostic," the issue of a God is just not one that compels me much one way or the other these days, and I wouldn't define my beliefs or worldview in reference to a God or a lack of one. It's just not what is most important or central for me. I describe myself as a Buddhist, a Zen Buddhist.

I don't really believe in much of anything right now, and was genuinely curious if that makes me a nihilist. Life does not at all feel cold and meaningless to me, but I don't have any investments in high-minded ideals right now. Some people are going to starve, some people are going to suffer, and it sucks, but I've also started seeing that as an inevitable part of the natural order. I detest the effects of the wage slavery that my society depends upon to function, but I don't believe it's possible to eradicate poverty in the world. I do think things can change, and work toward changes I believe in (supporting treatment as an alternative to incarceration is one, a change that is already happening in society), but I think in the biggest picture things mostly stay the same and that's OK. All of my old thinking around causes feels false to me now. So I guess I sort of do feel nihilistic right now, in an upbeat and "life is beautiful" sort of way...

**Jaana** · 07-06-2010, 02:44 PM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

To answer your question: I am not sure on the definition of nihilism, so I cannot really say if you are one. However, I think there is a crucial difference between accepting the existence of e.g. starvation in general, and accepting the starvation of a particular person. You would cross some line (in my mind) if you were to go from "we probably cannot completely eliminate hunger from the world" to "so what if she starves, starvation is natural". If you see what I mean.

(I feel sort of bad jumping in to this discussion. I am very new to zazen and definitely would not call myself a Buddhist at this point. Please do tell me if I violate some written or unwritten code of conduct. I wish to respect those of any place I visit.)

**ghop** · 07-06-2010, 03:03 PM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Christopher,

Thank you for the kindness and encouragement. As to your demons, hang in there.
The have a way of getting bored and flying off when starved for attention. Oh, and
the quotes by Buddha were priceless. Thanks man.

Jaana,

Please do jump in. If you have something to say it is probably because I have something
to learn. Your definition of atheism was well put. If belief in God or gods was all it took
to have a meaningful life, then I think history would look a little different.
Love is a human emotion. We've all got it. But it is so mystical at times that it seems
almost like a doorway between two worlds.

Stephanie,

Thanks for the textbooks. :wink:

gassho
Greg

**disastermouse** · 07-06-2010, 10:10 PM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

I myself have recently received the lesson about just how compelling our stories can be. Nihilism, in my opinion, isn't the lack of an unnecessary story - it's a story about how other stories are unnecessary, or blind-stupid, or reflective of a childish need for something or other. It can be as ossified and dukkha-creating as that which it is trying to prevent. Nihilism as practiced by many 'used-to-be-idealists' is a reactionary stance - but it's cut from the same cloth as idealism. It's just the dark side of idealism, which was always there but was not owned. In essence, I find it difficult to be an idealist without ALSO being a nihilist somewhere in the shadow.

To me, Zen is about rediscovering the deep significance of life without developing a meaning-based story around it - or I should say, developing as loose and forgiving a 'story' about it as possible. Sometimes a meaning-based story is a short-cut to short-circuit certain unproductive behaviors or activities, but often they bring as much dukkha-producing baggage as they attempt to dispel. They also produce a sort of 'if only everyone was like ME, the world would be better' attitude. I've been and sometimes still am guilty of this. It's good to be aware of it.

So idealism is often seen as a valiant struggle against the injustices of life - but it puts you at war with reality by conjuring projections of a certain ideal outcome or way of being. Invariably, this will wear you out, exhaust you, make you very tired. As Byron Katie might say, it's exhausting to fight a hopeless war against the rest of the world. At some point, it is possible to 'lapse' into 'I don't give a shit' nihilism - but that nihilism is a defense mechanism against the exhaustion of an unrealistic war against 'what is'.

That said, there IS a place for this theater of the mind, and it can produce some good things. It is in a way the currency of our existence. I suspect that the Zen way is not to go to war against reality, but also not to go to war against the tendency to take a position. But when we take our positions, we need not root our feet into the ground like trees, never to move or budge until the cold wind of reality bends us, breaks us, and painfully uproots us.

IMHO, YMMV.

Chet

**monkton** · 07-06-2010, 11:10 PM

Re: Am I a nihilist?

Hi Stephanie,

I don't feel like anyone or anything "Ultimate" in the universe cares.

'Ultimately' we are the universe, (what else could we/the universe be?) so if we care about anything, the universe cares.
gassho,
Monkton

Am I a nihilist?

Am I a nihilist?

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