Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

[CraigfromAz]

Craig here again, intellectually trying to figure out zen. I know, it's a fools errand.

Anyway, today as my mind was running amok while I attempted to sit zazen, I suddenly had this thought. If dukkha is caused by the discursive mind and it's thoughts/expectations, and zazen is where we allow the discursive mind to become it's most calm - wouldn't we be at our absolute happiest/most blissful while sitting zazen? If so, I would expect to read all sorts of posts like "I missed happy hour the other night because I was so caught up in zazen", or "my girlfirend is so upset with me because we never have sex anymore because I prefer to sit zazen."

But I haven't seen those kinds of posts. I see more "I should really sit more regularly", and "I just returned to sitting zazen after a few years off". I will admit that although my time on the cushion is fine, I rarely (if ever) continue to sit after the chimes ring. Anybody care to offer an opinion on why this is so?

[disastermouse]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

"Then it's goodbye, Sangsara for me
Besides, girls aren't as good as they look
And Samadhi is better than you think
When it starts in hitting your head
In with Buzz of glittergold
Heaven's Angels, wailing, saying
We've been waiting for you since morning, Jack
Why were you so long dallying in the sooty room?
This transcendental Brilliance
Is the better part (of Nothingness
I sing) Okay. Quit. Mad. Stop." - Jack Kerouac

Apparently, it does happen.

[Taylor]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

No space for glitter, no space for gold. Only time alone with yourself, and isn't that what everyone wants least? Never have I ever said "I really want to talk about my delusions, my problems, my ignorance." On the contrary, it's always me me me, what I do well, what I do perfectly. Zazen? Pft, doesn't make me feel full enough, doesn't make me glow. I seem like a bump on a log to others, why would I want to do that? No bells, no lights, no naked figures writhing about. What's the point!

Candy is only delicious until you feel sick, never wanting another piece to even cross your line of sight (for now). Water never seems to get old though, does it?

Gassho
Taylor

[Jundo]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

Craig here again, intellectually trying to figure out zen. I know, it's a fools errand.

Anyway, today as my mind was running amok while I attempted to sit zazen, I suddenly had this thought. If dukkha is caused by the discursive mind and it's thoughts/expectations, and zazen is where we allow the discursive mind to become it's most calm - wouldn't we be at our absolute happiest/most blissful while sitting zazen? If so, I would expect to read all sorts of posts like "I missed happy hour the other night because I was so caught up in zazen", or "my girlfirend is so upset with me because we never have sex anymore because I prefer to sit zazen."

But I haven't seen those kinds of posts. I see more "I should really sit more regularly", and "I just returned to sitting zazen after a few years off". I will admit that although my time on the cushion is fine, I rarely (if ever) continue to sit after the chimes ring. Anybody care to offer an opinion on why this is so?

Times of joy and bliss do happen. Yet in our Soto way, we neither run toward those nor run away. Such is the changing weather of the sky.

However, I might suggest that you look more in the direction of vibrant (as opposed to cold and numb) equanimity ... wholeness ... complete at-home-ness ... such "wholeness" that nothing is lacking, nothing to add ... that all the pieces of this life-self-world are in harmony ... such that, sometimes, even the sense of separate "pieces" to become "whole" may fully disappear.

We (in Soto Zen) tend to look upon running after permanent states of bliss as a drug, a phantasm, a dead end. Even should an abiding state of bliss be possible (I tend to think one should best seek that from the heroin pusher on the corner more than any guru), it is a removal from the wholeness and beauty of this life.

Recently, we had a little discussion of how Shikantaza may resemble what is known in Buddhism as the "Fourth Jhana" of the Sutta ... considered the highest Jnana in this life (for higher Jhana are more "out of this world" states, while lower Jnana emphasize bliss) ...

Richard Skankman's book makes one very interesting point that, perhaps, can be interpreted to mean that practices such as Shikantaza and the like actually cut right to the summit of Jhana practice. You see, it might perhaps possibly be argued (from some interpretations presented in the book) that Shikantaza practice is very close to what is referred to as the "Fourth Jhana in the Suttas" ... as opposed to the highly concentrated, hyper-absorbed Visuddhimagga commentary version. The Fourth Jhana in the Pali Suttas was considered the 'summit' of Jhana practice (as the higher Jhana, No. 5 to 8, were not encouraged as a kind of 'dead end') and appears to manifest (quoting the sutta descriptions in the book) "an abandoning of pleasure.pain, attractions/aversions, a dropping of both joy and grief", a dropping away of both rapture and bliss states, resulting in a "purity of mindfulness" and "equanimity". Combine this with the fact that, more than a "one pointed mind absorbed into a particular object", there is a "unification of mind" (described as a broader awareness around the object of meditation ... whereby the "mind itself becomes collected and unmoving, but not the objects of awareness, as mindfulness becomes lucid, effortless and unbroken" (See, for examples. pages 82-83 here))

http://books.google.com/books?id=lQ_ZzF ... q=&f=false

A bit of the discussion of the highest (in Buddhist Practice) "Fourth Jhana", and its emphasis on equanimity while present amid circumstances (and a dropping of bliss states), can be found on page 49 here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lQ_ZzF ... th&f=false

This is very close to a description of Shikantaza, for example, as dropping all aversions and attractions, finding unification of mind, collected and unmoving, effortless and unbroken, in/as/through/not removed from the life, circumstances, complexities which surround us and are us, sitting still with what is just as it is.

Note, among other descriptions, the dropping of "bliss", and the emphasis on wholeness and equanimity, as one enters the Fourth Jhana.

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

No space for glitter, no space for gold. Only time alone with yourself, and isn't that what everyone wants least? Never have I ever said "I really want to talk about my delusions, my problems, my ignorance." On the contrary, it's always me me me, what I do well, what I do perfectly. Zazen? Pft, doesn't make me feel full enough, doesn't make me glow. I seem like a bump on a log to others, why would I want to do that? No bells, no lights, no naked figures writhing about. What's the point!

Candy is only delicious until you feel sick, never wanting another piece to even cross your line of sight (for now). Water never seems to get old though, does it?

Gassho
Taylor

Too far the other way. It isn't all pain, or discomfort, or dare I say, 'heroism'?

Jack was a poet and a romantic. His weaknesses were wine and women. It's true he went too far in his expectations and burned out...but you can burn out just as easily the other way.

I had a friend the name of whom I can't remember. I met him at the beginner classes at Kanzeon. He had a 'heroic' mindset and everything 'decadent' offended him. At one point, he ate only flour and water and he got very thin. He was ardently vegetarian. He only wore secondhand clothes. He worked with 'Food Not Bombs' and cooked vegetarian meals made from food reclaimed from dumpsters or that restaurants were throwing out.

I ran into an ex-girlfriend of his about a year after losing contact with him. He too had burned out and had reverted to the Mormonism from which he'd rebelled.

If in your practice, the angels sing - don't cling. If in your practice, nothing happens - don't cling. If in your practice you are uncomfortable - don't cling.

If in your practice, the angels sing - don't push them away. If in your practice, nothing happens - don't push it away. If in your practice you are uncomfortable - don't push it away.

It's not the shiny things in life that are the problem, it's the clinging. It's not the difficulties in life that are the problem, it's the pushing away of them.

It's true that there's something a bit 'off' about the supposed 'bliss' of sitting zazen - and yet, it's true that sitting zazen can also be very peaceful and pleasant...and especially in the beginning, it's what may bring someone to the practice, so it's not all bad, is it?

YMMV.

Chet

[Taylor]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

I admit I was playing with words a bit :P haha I really do enjoy sitting for the most part. My whole point was something along the lines of, zazen may not be the most exciting part of your day or life, but! As Jundo said, we can't be blissed out all the time, either in meditation or samsara. Zazen is like water while seeking bliss is like candy. A flawed metaphor, I admit, but it fits in some ways I suppose.

Gassho
Taylor

[Taylor]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

But anyways, Craig, I suppose why zazen isn't the highlight of people's day, speaking from a beginner's standpoint, is that it's just ordinary. We come in looking for kensho, satori, anything! But, we don't find it. Sometimes bliss, sometimes not. Either way it's ok. The other day I was thinking about dropping off body and mind, what it should feel like, how much it should rock my world when it happens. Well I don't know if its happened, but after a year of meditation (including those magic esoteric Tibetan isms), nothing. But also not nothing, I'm more composed than I was a year ago, less apt to fly off the handle at silly things. But still, no magic.

Sometimes we feel inspired to sit, after a good dharma talk or finishing a good book. Other times it's just another chore, like brushing teeth or folding laundry. If it's good - fine, if it's bad - fine. I don't have enough experience to say much more than I have.

Humble newbie gasshos
Taylor

[AlanLa]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

Is zazen the highlight of my day? God, I hope not!
But it is the highlight of that moment.
Zazen is just a part of my day, an important part, but going to work and all those other things are important, too, each a highlight in their own unique way.

[Rich]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

But I haven't seen those kinds of posts. I see more "I should really sit more regularly", and "I just returned to sitting zazen after a few years off". I will admit that although my time on the cushion is fine, I rarely (if ever) continue to sit after the chimes ring. Anybody care to offer an opinion on why this is so?

Because you don't believe in your empty mind 100%. Just try coming back to that 10000 times a day. When the chimes ring you are just moving to a differnet form.

[Jinyu]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

hi everyone!

Zazen is just a part of my day, an important part, but going to work and all those other things are important, too, each a highlight in their own unique way.

I've nothing to add to what Alan Just said except perhaps an evidence, making / or letting each moment be an highlight is not always easy to do... but every place is a Zendo, isn't it?

gassho,
Luis

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

If dukkha is caused by the discursive mind and it's thoughts/expectations, and zazen is where we allow the discursive mind to become it's most calm - wouldn't we be at our absolute happiest/most blissful while sitting zazen? If so, I would expect to read all sorts of posts like "I missed happy hour the other night because I was so caught up in zazen", or "my girlfirend is so upset with me because we never have sex anymore because I prefer to sit zazen."

When I began this practice, I thought that the ultimate goal was bliss and happiness. But now, not so much. Now I think that it is to be completely with the way things are now. Everything is perfect. Bad things are perfectly bad things, good things are perfectly good, and imperfect things are perfectly imperfect. All happiness and no sad can't last. It's too far in one direction, to extreme. We call this the Middle Way, not because we are indecisive and prefer inaction; think instead of a ball in a bowl. No matter what way you turn that bowl and move that ball around, no matter how much you disturb it, when you put it down and let it return to its natural state of stillness, the ball will always return to the middle, the center. The extreme sides can't hold it. Zazen isn't drug happiness, not euphoria. It's the happiness you get when you see a beautiful sunset, knowing full well that it was singular and you will never see a sunset just like that again. You are thankful to have seen it, sad that such beauty can't be there forever for all people to see, happy that you will remember it, while at the same time looking forward to tomorrow's sunset, even if tomorrow, it's supposed to rain. Zazen is a return to that, but it isn't meant to stop there. We need to bring that out into the world and make every day actions zazen as well.

This practice is also taking life as it is, and perhaps not feeling euphoric about it, but being in harmony with it. That harmony, when you feel it and accept it, can bring you a measure of peace, even when things are not peaceful.

[AlanLa]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

Craig wrote:If dukkha is caused by the discursive mind and it's thoughts/expectations, and zazen is where we allow the discursive mind to become it's most calm - wouldn't we be at our absolute happiest/most blissful while sitting zazen?

I think you might be setting up a duality here where discursive thought is turbulence and zazen is calmness. Zen is about a middle way beyond such dualities. Besides, there's lots of times when zazen isn't all that calm or absent of discourse; it's just the turbulence and discourse are treated differently while in zazen.

Luis is exactly correct, and I thank him for pointing out my omission. I should've wrote that all the moments of the day are potentially highlights.

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

When I began this practice, I thought that the ultimate goal was bliss and happiness. But now, not so much... Zazen isn't drug happiness, not euphoria. It's the happiness you get when you see a beautiful sunset, knowing full well that it was singular and you will never see a sunset just like that again.

Very well said, thanks. I think my issue is that I sometimes feel just the way you describe above - when I am walking, biking, hanging out in the park - but never while I am sitting zazen.

[Heisoku]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

A lifetime ago I wanted to find out what it was like to 'be natural' with no volitional activity (naive, eh).I just found that the world impels us into various activities, even those you don't want, like responding to your needs and the needs of others (delusion)! I just thought that there was no stillness or calm, or that there could be any stillness and calm in activity (duality).
This was before I found out about zazen and began to practice.
I miss it when I don't start the day with zazen and I have found that it is not an imperative but just something ordinary and at the same time simply wonder..ful. It now carries me though each moment of each day with something of a smile on my face (can't be too happy or people start to suspect somethings up!).

Gassho Nigel

[Jundo]

Re: Is Zazen the highlight of your day?

... it's just ordinary. We come in looking for kensho, satori, anything! But, we don't find it. Sometimes bliss, sometimes not. Either way it's ok. The other day I was thinking about dropping off body and mind, what it should feel like, how much it should rock my world when it happens. Well I don't know if its happened, but after a year of meditation (including those magic esoteric Tibetan isms), nothing. But also not nothing, I'm more composed than I was a year ago, less apt to fly off the handle at silly things. But still, no magic.

Ah, perhaps you mean that many folks are foolishly looking for "kensho, satori" as some beginners imagine it ... when they think there will be Hollywood Special Effects to accompany that, designed by George Lucas at his animation studios. Or, they imagine that all life problems will vanish ... no more flat tires on life's highway, no more cancer and no more wars. They think that they will be in a perpetual state of HAPPY BLISSED-OUT LALA LAND (not helped by the fact that some descriptions of "Nirvana" have tended to paint things that way ... probably written by authors who themselves were not permanently in such a state, but who had been in bliss sometimes, like all of us have sometimes ... and who themselves were not Buddhas, but who nonetheless did have an excellent command of adjectives to describe "Blissful Buddha Golden Heaven" as they imagined it must be.)

Well, what one imagines is in the birthday present box ... under all the colored paper and bows ... and the actual present in the box are not necessarily the same. The actual present may be much more precious and lovely.

Truly, I would say that the "gift" is to be so totally at home and whole with this life ... even with all its ups and downs ... so whole and undivided, that even "up and down" can be seen right through ... all resistance and separation and barriers dropped away. If one is looking for "magic" that looks like a cheap stage show "magic", or if one is only seeing the ordinary as merely "ordinary" ... one is missing the absolute fact the this ordinary world is anything but ordinary! THAT is the real miracle and magic!

I am presently re-reading the most famous of all classical Zen texts ... the 'Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch'. I am comparing an early, simpler version from the 9th century with a later, more elaborate 13th century version. It is the work that is at the heart of our tradition. In no place in that work will you find an image of someone "blissed out" or running around like a crazy man yelling "Eureka Eureka". Instead, what one finds is a description of someone now totally at home in this reality ... even within/through/just as this complicated reality ... [my emphasis]

"Good friends, since the past this teaching of ours has first taken non-thought as its central doctrine, the formless as its essence, and nonabiding as its fundamental. The formless is to transcend characteristics (of how this world appears) within the context of characteristics. Nonthought is to be without thought in the context of thoughts. Nonabiding is to consider in one's fundamental nature that all worldly [things] are empty ... whether good or evil, pleasant or ugly, and enemy or friend ... [The work goes on to emphasize that "nonthought", for example, is not a complete absence of all thought, but is being free of thought within thoughts]

"The people of this world are delusively attached to characteristics (of phenomena) externally and delusively attached to emptiness internally. If one is able to transcend characteristics within characteristics and to transcend emptiness within emptiness, that is to be undeluded both externally and internally ...

In other words, if one can do that ... if one can encounter the flat tires, cancer and wars of this life, but with a mind nonabiding, clear, transcending characteristics ... all is seen and experienced as before, yet is seen and experienced not as before.

Gassho, J