The Point of Focus

[Rich]

Re: The Point of Focus

I'm uncertain about these images. Don't know if this makes sense.
I feel that this vast open white page is in fact unlimited pure compassion and our confusion, delusions, restraints mistake this vast unlimited space for a white page.
I have to work this out more,

gassho,

Sylvie

I think that when my state is clear like space, like a white paper, may actions (including speech) are automatically more compassionate, can be described with that attribute, so compassion would just be correct or right action. But I have to tell you that in certain situations what is correct action by me is not perceived as correct action by another, so I just try the best I can and make adjustments along the way.
/Rich

[disastermouse]

Re: The Point of Focus

I'm uncertain about these images. Don't know if this makes sense.
I feel that this vast open white page is in fact unlimited pure compassion and our confusion, delusions, restraints mistake this vast unlimited space for a white page.
I have to work this out more,

gassho,

Sylvie

I think that when my state is clear like space, like a white paper, may actions (including speech) are automatically more compassionate, can be described with that attribute, so compassion would just be correct or right action. But I have to tell you that in certain situations what is correct action by me is not perceived as correct action by another, so I just try the best I can and make adjustments along the way.
/Rich

When a teacher gives you a metaphor, he's using a hook to dislodge a hook - in the hope that he can finally get you down to a hook that you can dislodge yourself. Like the Chinese philosophers of old, arguing about whether 'hard' and 'white' were actual qualities or not - we shouldn't get too hung up on the metaphors as if they actually described anything useful.

They do not.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: The Point of Focus

When a teacher gives you a metaphor, he's using a hook to dislodge a hook - in the hope that he can finally get you down to a hook that you can dislodge yourself. Like the Chinese philosophers of old, arguing about whether 'hard' and 'white' were actual qualities or not - we shouldn't get too hung up on the metaphors as if they actually described anything useful.

They do not.

Chet

That is for sure. Metaphors are just ways of expressing something with an image that never exactly fits, that cannot even really be expressed quite often.

I feel that I ran with a couple of these images a bit further than they should be taken!

I do not actually think that Buddha is made of paper (although paper is made of Buddha), or that the universe is an etch-a-sketch! 8) The universe is more a game of mousetrap ...**



** another reference perhaps only understood by North American children of a certain generation

[Taigu]

Re: The Point of Focus

Brilliant...very good . I love you guys.

Metaphors?

Reality as a metaphor. Metaphor as real. Painted cakes and the likes. A good old guy called Dogen. Not even the shadow of a hook, there.

Indeed, the work of a teacher is to...blablabla!!!

And this blablabla happens to be mountains-rivers-surbubs-dirty-pillows-aching-feet

this balabla and the real thing: not one, not two.

Metaphors are not metaphors, there are just metaphors

Dogen will write this in a near future-past.

Thank you.



gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: The Point of Focus

Brilliant...very good . I love you guys.

Metaphors?

Reality as a metaphor. Metaphor as real. Painted cakes and the likes. A good old guy called Dogen. Not even the shadow of a hook, there.

Indeed, the work of a teacher is to...blablabla!!!

And this blablabla happens to be mountains-rivers-surbubs-dirty-pillows-aching-feet

this balabla and the real thing: not one, not two.

Metaphors are not metaphors, there are just metaphors

Dogen will write this in a near future-past.

Thank you.



gassho


Taigu

Notice all the open space in/as/behind/right through/just as Taigu's words ...

[disastermouse]

Re: The Point of Focus

A good old guy called Dogen. Not even the shadow of a hook, there.

Are you crazy? Hooks all over the place - you just can't see 'em because you're caught. Nothing Dogen ever said has anything to do with this moment.

Chet

*forgive the speaking style - I'm quitting smoking and my whole body is a mass of irritation...*

[JohnsonCM]

Re: The Point of Focus

Metaphores.....

Well, I think that metaphores are a good thing and are helpful as long as you don't become attached to them. They, like anything else, can be a tool in the Zen toolbox. Metaphores can be a trail of breadcrumbs leading you out of the forest, as long as you realize them to be what they are. Words, meant to convey an image, that hopefully will resonate enough with the person who heard it to direct their thinking in a way that will help them along the Zen path. Hopefully to a place that no longer needs metaphores, and where realization becomes primary. That's the kicker about this whole shin-dig, we need to use words, images, metaphores, etc because that's how we operate, that's how we start learning; but we do it to try and express something that needs to be exerienced and is "beyond words". We can only play with the toys we've got, and try to make the best of it.

[Taylor]

Re: The Point of Focus

Metaphores.....

We can only play with the toys we've got, and try to make the best of it.

Indeed. Zen gives few toys, no mantra, no visualization. Being humans, creative humans at that, we jump at the chance to grasp onto something we can ponder and relate to. Shikantaza, to me, seems like something we can never relate to and yet are all to familiar with.

To paraphrase a koan: We keep our teeth clamped tightly around the branch in order to try to save our life, to avoid falling into the abyss. Little do we know that the ground is right below us, we've just been looking up towards the sky, assuming we hang over a precipice. Clenching, grasping further. To look down would be to let go, to let go to die; and so we die, and are born in every moment on and off the cushion.

Just a thought

Gassho
Taylor

[Taigu]

Re: The Point of Focus

Hi Chet,

Soooooo glad you are kicking the habit! I did it 5 years ago, it turned me into a bit of a bear but it was worth it.

Everything Dogen speaks about has to do with this moment.
And yes, you are right about "hooks" but your truth was lacking something. Not quite ripe.
In shikantaza we are invited to live beyond this hooking-hiking business.
In this, reality and metaphors are just the same.

The fish fishes itself . No fishing hook needed.

take it easy

gassho


Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: The Point of Focus

Hi Chet,

Soooooo glad you are kicking the habit! I did it 5 years ago, it turned me into a bit of a bear but it was worth it.

Everything Dogen speaks about has to do with this moment.
And yes, you are right about "hooks" but your truth was lacking something. Not quite ripe.
In shikantaza we are invited to live beyond this hooking-hiking business.
In this, reality and metaphors are just the same.

The fish fishes itself . No fishing hook needed.

take it easy

gassho


Taigu

Interesting the way you put it - yes, everything he speaks about has to do with this moment, but nothing he says does.

He speaks about, around - but never of.

IMHO.

Rivers. Not Rivers. Rivers again. There are no unskillful words in what Dogen says, but a mind not yet abruptly present will make a hook out of anything.

Yeah, the first 48 hours had been hard, but it got REALLY easy all of a sudden.

Something odd about quitting smoking...it was/is exquisitely difficult....that is, I feel really alive with this craving - as if awakened from being very, very numb.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: The Point of Focus

Hi Chet,

Soooooo glad you are kicking the habit! I did it 5 years ago, it turned me into a bit of a bear but it was worth it.

Everything Dogen speaks about has to do with this moment.
And yes, you are right about "hooks" but your truth was lacking something. Not quite ripe.
In shikantaza we are invited to live beyond this hooking-hiking business.
In this, reality and metaphors are just the same.

The fish fishes itself . No fishing hook needed.

take it easy

gassho


Taigu

Interesting the way you put it - yes, everything he speaks about has to do with this moment, but nothing he says does.

He speaks about, around - but never of.

IMHO.

Rivers. Not Rivers. Rivers again. There are no unskillful words in what Dogen says, but a mind not yet abruptly present will make a hook out of anything.

Yeah, the first 48 hours had been hard, but it got REALLY easy all of a sudden.

Something odd about quitting smoking...it was/is exquisitely difficult....that is, I feel really alive with this craving - as if awakened from being very, very numb.

Chet

I don't know about Dogen, but I know quitting smoking ... I did it thousands of times! :shock:

Actually, I did it once and for all 20 years ago, not one cigarette since ... although, even now, I still get a small craving once a year or so, usually after a good meal of when with friends who are smokers.

The first 48 hours is the hardest, as all the poison washes out of the system. This is simply DETOX. Then the first week is easier, but still craving will come --very strongly-- several times every day. Then the first month ... even the first year ... cravings will still come now and then, sometimes very strong.

Two things ...

"Insta-Zazen" through the cravings! If you can hold on ... ride it out ... for 15 or 20 minutes, it will vanish. Just do not give in for that 20 minutes, and it will go away.

Second ... do not put a cigarette in your mouth, let alone take EVEN ONE PUFF ... not EVER! Not even "just one" six months from now. Just do not do the physical action of putting a cigarette in your mouth.

This is the "BIG UNHOOKING!" :P

(Oh, and PS ... I think the patches help too)

PPS - Once I checked into Sesshin at a Japanese Monastery ... Sojiji ... for a week, with the intent to quit. That lasted the first day, until I found the cigarette machine at the monastery, and that all the "smoker monks" were hiding out grabbing a quick one behind the Zen Hall between sittings. True Story.

[disastermouse]

Re: The Point of Focus

It helps that I've only been smoking regularly for about a year.

Chet

[JohnsonCM]

Re: The Point of Focus

I smoked a pack a day for somewhere near 7 years, but quit cold turkey before the birth of my first son. Hard, hard business quitting. The way I see it, you just have to bide your time through the cravings. This was ten years ago and I still get a twinge in my chest when I smell cigarette smoke, but the desire to have one only lasts about a second.

You can do it.

[pinoybuddhist]

Re: The Point of Focus

Any of you former smokers have the cigarette dreams? 'Cause I sometimes do. I dream of smoking cigarettes, sometimes joints. I smoked for ten years. I'm glad I stopped. It just feels so good to breathe now.

[Shohei]

Re: The Point of Focus

Any of you former smokers have the cigarette dreams? 'Cause I sometimes do. I dream of smoking cigarettes, sometimes joints. I smoked for ten years. I'm glad I stopped. It just feels so good to breathe now.

Yes, most recovering addicts will have dreams relating to their addiction. A friend of mine calls hers Drunk Dreams and like myself and others said they felt a bit guilty in dream and for a short while after for giving in in there dream to what ever their addiciton (as well she said she felt hung over when she woke up... which i thought was very interesting). For me 2.5 years of quitting and i still have em and i still awake going WHEW just a dream. I used to smoke about a pack to a pack and a half a day. Weed I smoked a plenty (half an oz a week) but never had any issue besides a couple of reaaaally boring parties with friends that kept it up... and like 2 restless nights. that was er 6 years ago ish.

Glad you kicked it Chet- well and the rest of us Good job!

Gassho
Shohei