What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

[ghop]

Anyone else read this?

http://www.shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=16810

Of course, I disagree. I know that my understanding has improved BECAUSE of
my ONLINE teacher and ONLINE sangha. Where would I be without it? Does
she take into consideration those of us who live in remote areas where there are
NO teachers? What are we supposed to do, pack up our lives and hit the road with
our families in search of a teacher? Oh, but then the Dharma would be unpractical
and no longer the living dharma. Ok, so I'm flapping at the mouth now. But I
would be interested to hear others' opinions about her statement and about how
Treeleaf has improved, wait, not the right word, enriched their practice
and understanding of the dharma.

gassho,
ghop

[Stephanie]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

Thanks for the heads up, I don't usually visit Shambhala Sunspace from work. Just posted several comments there :mrgreen:

I went on at length there, but in short here: she's reacting to an idea in her head about what an Internet sangha might be, rather than the actual reality or experience. Same error we all make again and again. Same error this practice helps us see and free ourselves from.

The actual experience of Treeleaf is that it changes lives, inspires devotion and dedication to Dharma and zazen, and helps people past stuck places in practice.

I think Jundo knows me better than any teacher I've met face to face.

There's always going to be pundits with opinions and people vying for status. Fortunately, none of that has anything to do with realization, or freedom.

[Taylor]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

I have not been here long, so I cannot speak of Treeleaf directly as to what goes on here (so far, so good!). But I do have a few humble opinions. First of all, a Sangha is important. It allows you the support that you are, in fact, not in this alone. So in that sense, have a sangha and a teacher at ready access is a good thing; we never have to go without!

But that may be an issue. If we never go without a teacher only a click away we may never take the opportunity to search for a teacher we can meet face to face. Sometimes it is impossible, yes, and no one is asking anyone else to pack up and move for the sake of a teacher (You may as well ordain if doing that ) but sometimes that quest, that adventure can allow us to have a greater sense of the journey. That is was Shikantaza is all about, right? Not the goal, the journey.

I also think that there is something to be said about the difference in a face-to-face meeting rather than one over video chat. Whenever I had an interview with a teacher face to face there is a certain amount of wonderful terror that occurs because that person is able to feel your emotions and your "vibe" I suppose. Smell the sweat, the fear, or the joy that pervades your body while interacting. The same goes with the student, the teacher's vibe must also be felt. To get anywhere we need to feel that, IMHO, we need to feel vulnerable and uncomfortable with a teacher because we've spent too much time already with the "I know that, I know this, I am this person, etc..." A new face to face encounter can uncover deeper feelings that we ever knew existed. But I digress...

I truly respect those who have created and participated in this community. It has proved thus far to be a great resource and community for support in the practice of Soto Zen when, really, there isn't a community nearby that offers the same resources. But! I cannot, so far, see this as being my only form of a Sangha because I see myself falling into stagnation, returning to this over adventure to find a face to face teacher. Adventure is important I feel.

Fundamentally though, life and Zazen are the true teachers

[Jinyu]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

she's reacting to an idea in her head about what an Internet sangha might be

Hi!
Yep! I think it is difficult for people to understand what is really going on in here... but they think they don't need to know... they can imagine it *sarcastic voice* ! And finally, they just don't know!

The actual experience of Treeleaf is that it changes lives, inspires devotion and dedication to Dharma and zazen

Yes, it does! :wink:
edit: I just wanted to add a word about the fact that Treeleaf is more open and transparent than most Sanghas I know.
I mean, the totality of our discussion is being freely accessible to ANYONE via the Internet. We accept discussion about every subject with everyone, and the threads resulting from these discussions are open and accessible to anyone on the forum. ...
What about that...
What if most Sanghas had a place where every word said publicly by their members are kept?


gassho,
Jinyu

[disastermouse]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

This is one of those things that seems like it shouldn't work, but does.

Treeleaf has inspired me to:

Actually converse about Zen with other people who are not starting at rock bottom.

Begin a regular daily practice again after 12 years off.

Allowed me to regularly interact with transmitted teachers.

Get some major misunderstandings (of mine) corrected.

Stay in a place where I'm accepted even though I'm sometimes disruptive.

Thank Sidd for Treeleaf.

Chet

[Grizzly]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

:lol: I defended Karen when she was attacked by a real Zen demon on the net - lets hope that demon doesn't get hold of Treeleaf!
After a brief chat where I was disappointed that compassion for the world didn't enter into her way of thinking, I reflected that for many Zen is a pursuit of the comfortable middle classes, or at least relatively financially secure folks. While this is by no means limited to Zen, I think many of these folks don't want to throw themselves into reality in its totality. They get to some stage and then build a model of "how it should be" and then live even more comfortably with that new nice belief set.

Having met a number of people that have had kensho like experiences (similar to one of Stephanie's friends) who had never sat meditation in any form I find it startling that everybody gets so defensive over "how things should be". We say that reality is always here- it just needs to be seen. Zen practice is therefore a skilful means to help in that quest. Similarly a book, or word, a scene can all lead to awakening. A sangha might be a more fruitful place for many tho....online or face to face.

That post just shows how we need to keep throwing everything away :lol:

BTW Nice responses Stephanie

All the best and long live Treeleaf and other experiments in new forms of community.

Rich

[chicanobudista]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

To be sure, online teachings can inspire and provoke. But they do not teach, except in an intellectual way. The point of our practice is to literally move beyond limited and ego-bound intellectual understanding, to follow the pointer outside words and letters. Only then do we enter true mind and see our inherent Buddha nature.

But all teaching is intellectual if the student is only listening at a zendo. All teachers teach at an intellectual level. I think the point she may be missing is that the PRACTICE is up to us. A teacher can NOT practice for you even if he standing on your shoes or sitting on your cushion.

[chicanobudista]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

As far as TL, the closest "real" sangha (teacher, zendo, etc) is about five hours from me. TL is the closest to me to being in an actual building in Austin visiting a teacher. TL has been a great source and w/o it would make my Buddhist practice hard to follow-through. I still thank the day that I saw the ad & thought "This is crazy! What's that all about??"....... :mrgreen:

[Shugen]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

I read the article a couple of days ago. I can only speak for myself. Before Treeleaf, I read lots of books, thought about sitting and didn't sit, now I sit regularly. I feel I've learned more here in the last 2 or 3 years then I did in the previous 10 years of reading. It's not for everyone but neither is anyplace else.

The online sangha debate seems to crop up every so often, cause a bit of a stir and then just kind of go away until the next time. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to decide whether or not it works for them.

Ron

[Tb]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

Hi.

She says it the best herself, quoting in the beginning:

A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence on words and letters;
Direct pointing to the mind of man;
Seeing into one’s nature and attaining Buddhahood.
– Bodhidharma

What else than that are we doing here?
And (in a weird way quoting myself)

Whether it's a teacher in the real-virtual or virtual-real world, does it matter?

If we drop all concepts of i/you, here/there, real/virtual where is the teacher?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

I am here as is my teacher

[Taylor]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

Well said, Fugen.

Gassho
Taylor

[Taylor]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

I just watched the most recent "Sit-a-long". Jundo, you must be inside my head! Your words were to the point, inspiring, and beautiful. I occasionally find myself skeptical of things like this, then I am hit with a feeling that transcends skepticism and thought. Experience. Just an experience of openness and peace. As I said before, I have respect for this sangha and faith in the teachers. Thank you for not letting walls stand because of tradition but also for not "tossing the baby out with the bath water" Thanks to all!

Gassho

Taylor

[Jundo]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

But that may be an issue. If we never go without a teacher only a click away we may never take the opportunity to search for a teacher we can meet face to face. Sometimes it is impossible, yes, and no one is asking anyone else to pack up and move for the sake of a teacher (You may as well ordain if doing that ) but sometimes that quest, that adventure can allow us to have a greater sense of the journey. That is was Shikantaza is all about, right? Not the goal, the journey.

Learn from many teachers, learn from each other, learn from oneself, sit with many Sangha. I do.

I mean, one can have a main group of "homies" that one hangs with, and a certain "way we roll" on the Zafu (How's the 'J-Masters'' attempt to be down with the lingo? :roll: ), but learn from many Sangha and teachers ... from the rocks and trees. Sit in a building, sit online, sit on a mountain ... sit as a mountain.

Each experience is different, each day is different and changing even in the "same place" (it is never the same place as just a moment before).

I think it is important to sit in a room with someone and smell the sweat! I think it is also good to sit here and have contact and intimacy with the other senses ... transcending the senses too.

This is not an "either/or" proposition.

Gassho, J

[Tb]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

Hi.

The question everybody seem to circle here is "what is a teacher?"
Answer that one first.

Here's one answer

I often get the question "What is a teacher?"

A teacher is "something that teaches something to something".

It can be a teacher teaching a student how to read or sit.
It can be a stone teaching you not to kick it because it will hurt if you do.
It can be nothing teaching nothing to nothing.
It can even be me teaching you what a teacher is.

http://fugenblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/w ... acher.html

But what's your answer?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Silva]

Re: What Is The Sound Of One Teacher Flapping?

Karen Maezen Miller sounds like a kitten that has got herself mixed up in a ball of wool!
Bravo Stéphanie for your comments you really said everything that had to be said!
I feel deeply sorry for the

ridiculous straw man to knock down

, poor man, getting knocked down for his not complying to her deluded ideas of a teacher, whislt she ignores or perhaps has clumsily ommited to talk about his acts. Was he good or bad we will never know.
What we do know now is how the lady is struggling with delusions, how she's fundamentally in the same bag as us all, good teacher or no good teacher. It would be a good idea to invite her to the Sangha so that together we can unravel this ball.
I learn so much from all your experiences, because your all talking about life here: how you sit, what you do during the day, what you read, what you feel, what you worry and so much mre...but all in the awareness of Dharma...
I learn from Jundo and Taigu that zazen is not just a sitting experience but can be extended to a 24hr whatever I'm doing, including sleep, experience.
Nobody told me or taught me that before and Iv'e not yet read it in a book.
But how would I know anything anyway as I haven't got a teacher!!! ( I'm open to offers!)
I don't think my learning anything depends on a teacher but on my own will to be taught, to observe, to listen, to taste...

Madame Karen Maezen Miller, it would be lovely to meet you, won't you come over here and have a cup of tea ?