Just sitting vs silent illumination

[Jundo]

Re: Just sitting vs silent illumination

Let your mind compile grocery lists - just unhook your identity from it - don't enter 'into' it. When you find your attention focused on your grocery list, 'unhook' it from the list and go back to an expansive, diffuse awareness. The list may or may not continue going on,

This is not my experience. Once I "unhook" from a train of thought, it is gone, by MY definition of being unhooked. If it reappears, I am "hooked" again, and have to unhook. This is similar (for me) to having a song running through your mind. Unless the song is GONE, it is still running through your head. Now maybe someone who understands minds/thoughts better than I do (apparently everybody else here ops: ) might be able to demonstrate the song is still running in my head, I'm just not focusing on it.

Not sure if you both are describing the same thing ... but in your own ways.

So much of our practice is experiential on the cushion, experiencing sitting in all sitting's moods, and known to be right when felt as right.

Sometimes the grocery list or song is completely filling your thoughts, and you are actively thinking about what you need to buy or humming along. We are hooked like a fish who can't break free. That --is not-- Zazen (even though "everything is Zazen" in one meaning,).

Sometimes the song and shopping list are fully gone ... not there at all. No more there than "horns on a cat". "We" are not there at all. There is nothing there to hook onto, no one to cast a line. That is Zazen.

Sometimes the song and grocery list are there, but translucent, seen through, not attached to ... not stirred up. Whether we are "hooked" or "unhooked" are not even in question, for all feels whole, balanced and clear. That is Zazen.

Sometimes we are hooked like a fish, dragged around a bit by life ... yet too feel free and still. At one with life's hooks. Humming a tune as silence, compiling lists with nothing to acquire. That is Zazen.

If Zazen is "right" it usually feels "right" (even though, of course, there is no "wrong" or "right" Zazen) ...

"Right" Zazen and "Wrong" Zazen

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Gassho, J

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Just sitting vs silent illumination

So much of our practice is experiential on the cushion, experiencing sitting in all sitting's moods, and known to be right when felt as right.

Sometimes the grocery list or song is completely filling your thoughts, and you are actively thinking about what you need to buy or humming along. We are hooked like a fish who can't break free. That --is not-- Zazen (even though "everything is Zazen" in one meaning,).

Sometimes the song and shopping list are fully gone ... not there at all. No more there than "horns on a cat". "We" are not there at all. There is nothing there to hook onto, no one to cast a line. That is Zazen.

So far, "I" am always there when I sit. On the blue sky days, I sense that there are few clouds, but there is ALWAYS an "I" that is witnessing those clouds/blue sky. I don't yet get the concept of "not being there". I'm guessing that is one of those things that you can't understand until it happens to you.

[Jundo]

Re: Just sitting vs silent illumination

So much of our practice is experiential on the cushion, experiencing sitting in all sitting's moods, and known to be right when felt as right.

Sometimes the grocery list or song is completely filling your thoughts, and you are actively thinking about what you need to buy or humming along. We are hooked like a fish who can't break free. That --is not-- Zazen (even though "everything is Zazen" in one meaning,).

Sometimes the song and shopping list are fully gone ... not there at all. No more there than "horns on a cat". "We" are not there at all. There is nothing there to hook onto, no one to cast a line. That is Zazen.

So far, "I" am always there when I sit. On the blue sky days, I sense that there are few clouds, but there is ALWAYS an "I" that is witnessing those clouds/blue sky. I don't yet get the concept of "not being there". I'm guessing that is one of those things that you can't understand until it happens to you.

Sometimes "I" is there - Sometimes "I" is not there. Sometimes it is not even a question of "either/or" ... Sometimes "I" is there and seen through too ... translucent, whole, clear.

But where is "I" when "I" simply stops thinking about "I", or about "I" and "not I"?? Sometimes "I" is asleep or unconscious. Sometimes "I" is "you" or "me and you and the rock over there". Always changing.

Where is "I" when we stop looking for "I", or worrying where the real "I" should be?

Sometimes we find true "I" by forgetting "I". Sometimes we find true "I" by just letting "I" be "I" in its own true place.

As Dogen put it ...

To learn Buddhism is to learn ourselves. To learn ourselves is to forget ourselves. To forget ourselves is to be experienced by millions of things and phenomena. To be experienced by millions of things and phenomena is to let our own body and mind, and the body and mind of the external world, fall away. [Then] we can forget the [mental] trace of realization, and show the [real] signs of forgotten realization continually, moment by moment. When a person first seeks the Dharma, he is far removed from the borders of Dharma. But as soon as the Dharma is authentically transmitted to the person himself, he is a human being in his own true place.

Ya know, looking for "self" could be much like floating in water wondering "where is the water" and "what is this that's wet"? Wondering about "self" and "not self" might be like wondering "am I floating in the water, or is the water floating me?" When we stop thinking about the question, there it is ... just there, and soaking wet.

Suzuki Roshi had something on this that I was reading today (in his Suzuki Roshi way of putting things) ...

Wherever I Go, I Meet Myself

Most of us want to know what the self is. This is a big problem. I am trying to understand why you have this problem. It seems to me that even though you try to understand who you are, it is an endless task, and you will never see your self. You say that to sit without thinking is difficult, but it will be even more difficult to try to think about your self. To reach a conclusion is almost.impossible, and if you continue trying, you become crazy, and you won't now what to do with your self. ...

Tozan, the founder of the Chinese Soto Zen School, said, "Don't try to see yourself objectively." In other words, don't try to seek for information about yourself that is the objective truth. That is information. He says that the real you is quite different from any information you have. The real you is not that kind of thing. "I go my own way. Wherever I go, I meet myself."

... When you empty your mind, when you give up everything and just practice zazen with an open mind, then whatever you see you meet yourself. That is you, beyond she or he or me. As long as you are clinging to the idea of self and trying to improve your practice or discover something, trying to create an improved, better self, then your practice has gone astray. You have no time to reach the goal, so eventually you will get tired out, and you will say, "Zen is no good. I practiced zazen for ten years, but I didn't gain anything!" But if you just come here and sit with sincere students and fmd yourself among them, and you continue in that way, that is our practice. You can have this kind of experience wherever you are. As Tozan said, "Wherever I go, I meet myself." If he sees water, that is to see himself To see water is enough for him, even though he cannot see himself in the water. So the way to understand yourself is not by understanding yourself objectively or gathering information from various sources. ...

If you cling to an idea you create, like a self or an objective reality, you will be lost in the objective world that you create with your mind. You are creating things one after another, so there is no end. There may be various worlds you are creating, and to create and see many things is very interesting, but you should not be lost in your creations. The other side of our practice is that we think and we act. We do not try to be like a stone. Everyday life is our practice. Instead of being enslaved by the thinking mind or the imagination or emotional activity, we just think in its true sense. Thinking comes to us from our true self, which includes everything. Before we think about it, trees, birds, and everything are thinking. And when they think, they groan or they sing. That is their thinking. There is no need for us to think more than that. If we see things as it is, thinking is already there. This kind of pure thinking is the thinking we have in our practice, so we always have freedom from ourselves too. We can see things as it is, and at the same time we can think about things. Because we do not cling to any particular standard for thinking, for us there is no true way and no false way.

Thank. you very much.

(From 'Not Always So')

[disastermouse]

Re: Just sitting vs silent illumination

The sense of witness is subtle and pervasive. 'Sink into', don't float above. If you try to make self and other 'one' it will never work because you're starting from separate. The assumption has already been made.

Look closely into this witness. What is its substance? Where is this persistent witness? What are it's boundaries?

It can take time for the witness to dissolve, but it's not a matter of doing, it's a matter of subtle restraint. It's the cornerstone of 'renunciation'.

Keep sitting, there are no strategies. The witness is not dissolved through effort, it dissolves when the subtle effort to maintain it ceases.

But you can't see what you can't see. Methodically drop everything as it comes up. Eventually only the witness is left. Then drop that.

Chet

[Fuken]

Re: Just sitting vs silent illumination

The sense of witness is subtle and pervasive. 'Sink into', don't float above. If you try to make self and other 'one' it will never work because you're starting from separate. The assumption has already been made.

Look closely into this witness. What is its substance? Where is this persistent witness? What are it's boundaries?

It can take time for the witness to dissolve, but it's not a matter of doing, it's a matter of subtle restraint. It's the cornerstone of 'renunciation'.

Keep sitting, there are no strategies. The witness is not dissolved through effort, it dissolves when the subtle effort to maintain it ceases.

But you can't see what you can't see. Methodically drop everything as it comes up. Eventually only the witness is left. Then drop that.

Chet

That was a beautiful expression Chet.
Thank you.
Jordan

[Jundo]

Re: Just sitting vs silent illumination

But you can't see what you can't see. Methodically drop everything as it comes up. Eventually only the witness is left. Then drop that.

Chet

I don't get too caught up in this "witness", or worry about finding him/that/whatever too much. He/She/Whatever is just always witnessing, so what's to look for?

Sometimes only the witness is left, sometimes not even that ... sometimes songs and shopping lists ... sometimes all at once. Sometimes we are aware of that, sometimes not even that. Always true self, always the witness no matter what.

Looking for this witness, even by trying too hard to "drop the search and chase", is a bit like a dog worried where its tail is ...



Even if it tries to "find its tail" by the technique of dropping the looking ... it may still be trying too hard, and engaged in a pointless effort. Maybe you are then just a dog laying in wait for the tail to come to the dog..

The tail is always there (I believe this was Suzuki Roshi's point above).

Gassho, J

[Fuken]

Re: Just sitting vs silent illumination

Even if it tries to "find its tail" by the technique of dropping the looking ... it may still be trying too hard, and engaged in a pointless effort. Maybe you are then just a dog laying in wait for the tail to come to the dog..

The tail is always there (I believe this was Suzuki Roshi's point above).

Gassho, J

Classic! And yeah, I've found myself guilty of that engagement in pointless effort too.