Mindful approach

[Rich]

Re: Mindful approach

Chet, I agree there is an outside and inside and I don't know why but I really love those birds

/Rich.

[Grizzly]

Re: Mindful approach

Hi Chet
I wasnt disagreeing with Taigu in the sense of what we are doing. In fact that was exactly what I was saying. The trouble is that the teachings and/or some of our minds get it wrong and so I was trying to present a skilful means to address problems such as these.
Also the "entity that is experiencing" comes from thought. It is, in my experience so far anyway, a more subtle level of thoughts. However, I agree entirely with you saying it feels like a focal point.
Hi Janne
Yes I agree. I also don't think there is an issue regarding focussing either in reality. Whether we focus on the whole body,or a part of the whole like the feet, or even the birds singing is not a problem if we are fully immersed in the experience but awake. I too have spent many years though, like you, getting caught in all these different things- and I will probably spend many years getting caught by other things as well!
Have a great day chaps
Rich

[Grizzly]

Re: Mindful approach

One last thing..I really like Seung Sahn's short pithy sayings..."Keep don't know mind" and "Don't check yourself"...

[disastermouse]

Re: Mindful approach

I think that the difference between a shikantaza based 'mindfulness' and 'mindfulness' from a Theravada point of view is one of 'Sink into and dissolve' vs. 'float above and observe'.

In shikantaza or Zen 'mindfulness', the sense of a focal point or the subtle sense of self 'sinks into the activity and dissolves' (I'm giving an image here, not making a philosophical statement) wherein most 'mindfulness' actually creates a neutral observer that 'floats above and observes' activity. I think you can see how these are very, very different.

Chet

[Grizzly]

Re: Mindful approach

Hi Chet

Yes, thats what we were saying but I am suggesting it might be a linguistic problem rather than an actual problem. Of course I don't know this but watching some of the jolly Theravadin masters its difficult to accept that they are living in the detached way that left me Vulcanised!

All the best

Rich

[disastermouse]

Re: Mindful approach

Hi Chet

Yes, thats what we were saying but I am suggesting it might be a linguistic problem rather than an actual problem. Of course I don't know this but watching some of the jolly Theravadin masters its difficult to accept that they are living in the detached way that left me Vulcanised!

All the best

Rich

I think it's just a natural misunderstanding of what 'mindfulness' really is/means. It's just another example to point out that we need guidance from others who've been there.

Chet

[Jenny]

Re: Mindful approach

What a lovely clear explanation Rich gave us of using the senses for being mindfully present.
The Great Way is there to be entered as each moment of our life arises and passes - the richness
is there if we just waken up to it, and, of course, it slips away for the next moment to arise.
And with such simple things too, that we take for granted. Just sipping a cup of tea. Watching the
wind blow the cherry blossoms, - or taking out the garbage!

Jenny

[Stephanie]

Re: Mindful approach

When I first started getting into a Buddhist practice in 2003, I was very drawn to Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings and the practice of 'mindfulness.'

The way I practiced mindfulness was very 'concentration based.' My 'idea' of what 'mindfulness' was 'supposed to be like' was to be completely concentrated on the task at hand. Of course, this naturally arose from my sitting practice, which was also concentration-based at the time.

I had a lot of 'success' with this in the beginning. I had wonderful experiences of being completely focused on the meal I was eating, chewing slowly and tasting all the subtle nuances of the food I was eating that was missed when I ate with less concentrated attention. I had wonderful experiences of mindful baths, yoga, walking, cleaning, etc.

But I was not able to maintain this practice for too long. When life started getting more hectic and my mind more busy, I felt like I could 'no longer 'do' mindfulness' and abandoned the practice/effort. Because I equated mindfulness with a completely still mind. I thought mindfulness could not be 'achieved' if the mind was caught in discursive thought. So when my mind was no longer able to become as still, I stopped 'trying.'

The wonderful new approach to 'mindfulness' that I have developed through shikantaza practice is that whatever is going on in the mind is an object of attention also. It is a practice of constantly noticing when I am becoming distracted. I notice what my mind is doing and let go. I'm no longer trying to stop or control my mind or make it do something different, I'm just noticing whatever it is actually doing. Which means that I am mindful more of the time, because any time I notice I am distracted, or lost in thought, I just notice and come back, even if I've been 'lost' for 3 hours. Just notice, 'unhook' as Chet puts it, and come back.

I find it a lot more interesting to just notice whatever is going on in the moment than constantly trying to control or change my mind.

[Janne H]

Re: Mindful approach

Hi Stephanie, thanks for sharing.

I totally can see myself in your story, and I also lean towards the shikantaza way of accepting all that is, even the discursive thoughts. The stillness is still there, and shines through when letting go or unhooking as you say, and it´s expression is of a more living dynamic sort, which is great, I think. It is still a mindful approach, but with a more balanced flavor.

Although, I still return to the breath when my mind "is way out" there, just to bring it back to this moment, to be able to be with it all.

Yet, this is a new discovery for me, the Soto way, which I have only begun to unravel.

Janne

[Jundo]

Re: Mindful approach

Hi Stephanie, thanks for sharing.

I totally can see myself in your story, and I also lean towards the shikantaza way of accepting all that is, even the discursive thoughts. The stillness is still there, and shines through when letting go or unhooking as you say, and it´s expression is of a more living dynamic sort, which is great, I think. It is still a mindful approach, but with a more balanced flavor.

Although, I still return to the breath when my mind "is way out" there, just to bring it back to this moment, to be able to be with it all.

Yet, this is a new discovery for me, the Soto way, which I have only begun to unravel.

Janne

Now that sounds like a way of "mindfulness" that is powerful and practical. In fact, it sounds like my own practice. It is the main way to bring this practice "off the cushion". In whatever situation, when caught up in thoughts and emotions, just notice briefly the current scenery in the "mind theatre" and unhook, "Insta-zazening" right there. The stillness is always there, and will shine through the passing thoughts and emotions just by letting go or "unhooking". Then, the mind's shadows will be experienced in a new light, and thought-emotions will be tasted differently, illuminated or dropped away. It is most useful in moments of extreme or unbalanced emotions (in fear, anger, stress, lust), but can happen at any life moment at all ... even the simplest and most ordinary.

I would just offer, again, a voice of moderation even on this. Most of life can just be lived as life ... no need to notice or do anything. Trying to do or change the situation actually removes us from life. Just "notice and unhook" a few times during one's day, and that is good practice. Do not seek or force oneself to be that way "all the time, morning through night" unless ... for example ... at a retreat or during an intensive practice period or as a once in awhile special practice (that is, in my experience, how most Zen monks ... and I have known my share! ... actually live most of the time, not forcing themselves to do anything to change most life moments.) Just try to notice the "mind theatre's" scenery a few times a day and release, turning the light inward, allowing the light to shine through and shine out.

However, by doing so ... as time passes ... one will likely come to see that this starts to happen automatically, and becomes something present throughout one's life ... available at any time ... even without need to seek to do it! For example, yesterday I went into hectic Tokyo ... crowds, packed trains, stresses, noise ... and my mind began to become stressed, tired and noisy. Time and again, however, I found I would "turn" the situation into something quite other ... spacious, free, balanced and quiet ... just naturally. The cloudiness would part revealing the open sky, or the bright sky would be seen through the clouds ... even walking the busy city streets.

Gassho, J

[ghop]

Re: Mindful approach

I would just offer, again, a voice of moderation even on this. Most of life can just be lived as life ... no need to notice or do anything. Trying to do or change the situation actually removes us from life. Just "notice and unhook" a few times during one's day, and that is good practice. Do not seek or force oneself to be that way "all the time, morning through night" unless ... for example ... at a retreat or during an intensive practice period or as a once in awhile special practice (that is, in my experience, how most Zen monks ... and I have known my share! ... actually live most of the time, not forcing themselves to do anything to change most life moments.) Just try to notice the "mind theatre's" scenery a few times a day and release, turning the light inward, allowing the light to shine through and shine out.

Jundo,

I know you didn't write this to me, and I don't mean to butt in on this thread,
but thank you so much for this "voice of moderation." It always seems to come
when I need it most (Always! :shock: ). I have such an easy time getting carried
away with myself, becoming too serious about things, being compulsive, and it
is nice to have this voice calling me back to the "middle way." Please don't
interpret this as "butt kissing." :mrgreen:

gassho

greg

[Grizzly]

Re: Mindful approach

Just out of interest I was sitting in bed last night reading a book by a chap that had been a Theravadin monk for a few years and he talked about mindfulness in the same way as I was trying to put it. He says the Theravadin way ISN'T to have a little observer, which was nice to find as one's little self always likes confirmation! lol

I remember somewhere it being written that culture might be the cause for the dispute they might have spoken like this but cannot recall the exact words so can't say more.

He (the monk) did also go on to talk about being aware of the thought stream in detail though, so some differences to shikantaza, but he made some valid points about how that might relate to the last two of the noble tenfold path..number nine specifically.

Rich

[Grizzly]

Re: Mindful approach

Also just been starting a book by one of the Thai forest tradition masters- one of Ajahan Chah's students. He specifically mentioned about not being self-conscious as we are mindful. It reads, to my mind at least, that the basics are the same there. He also talks of the precepts as being the way to create a harmonious community so people can concentrate on practice without much worry about safety and others' behaviour. Essentially the same thing as Dogen saying about cleanliness, eating pickles (I think) and other rules in Shobogenzo. So discipline, pragmatism and sitting are looking very similar. Of course there are differences to Shikantaza but I don't think this is an issue any more than within the Zen umbrella where we have breath following, counting and other devices across the traditions.
Rich