shoulds or wills?

[AlanLa]

What's more important, I should've done better or I will do better?
Let me explain:
I look back on an event that did not work out particularly well and say to myself, "I should've done this better." or...
I look back on an event that did not work out particularly well and say to myself, "Next time I will do this better."

I've been processing an event like this all weekend and thought it might be worth a whirl on the forum, because we all go through stuff like this from time to time.

[Jundo]

Re: shoulds or wills?

What's more important, I should've done better or I will do better?
Let me explain:
I look back on an event that did not work out particularly well and say to myself, "I should've done this better." or...
I look back on an event that did not work out particularly well and say to myself, "Next time I will do this better."

I've been processing an event like this all weekend and thought it might be worth a whirl on the forum, because we all go through stuff like this from time to time.

I think we should say "Next time I will do this better." 8)

Actually, just being playful with words.

I believe the "Next time I will seek to do this better." is much more important than the "should haves" "wish I hadn'ts" and regrets over the past. We have to accept the fact of the past events as just what they are.

Of course, we should learn from our mistakes in the past, attempt to fix any damage we have done that can still be fixed, and offer apologies to anyone we have hurt in the past if it will help to heal.

Also, a bit of remorse and "feeling bad" about something we did in the past is not necessarily bad if not in excess. It is part of the "paying the debt of past Karma". If I did not cause my son to feel a little "bad" about having told a lie or stealing some toy from his friend, he might never learn (in fact, sounds fairly sociopathic to be too clinical and unfeeling about one's actions). So, I think a little "regret and remorse" is natural, and hard wired into us. We can accept the past, fully embrace that "what happened happened" ... and simultaneously feel a bit sad about it (all at once, not two ... acceptance without acceptance). Only regret and sadness in excess may it be a problem, when it reaches the point of beating ourselves up over something we did.

That is how I think we should handle this! 8)

Gassho, J

[AlanLa]

Re: shoulds or wills?

OK, Jundo aced this silly little "exam" question (don't you hate those students that suck up to the teacher like that :lol: ) let me complicate it a bit with a follow up. How do we dance with the should have's and the will do's? I find it very clumsy. Don't you? It's a delicate balance, and I find I tend to want to get stuck with one partner (the former) more than the other. It's a complicated dance to learn a lesson from the past and internalize it someway so that you can apply it in the future.

Also, for bonus credit :roll: :twisted: consider the event that has passed that you wish to do over again because you have learned a great lesson from it, but such an event will likely never happen again. How do you do that dance?

[Rich]

Re: shoulds or wills?

OK, Jundo aced this silly little "exam" question (don't you hate those students that suck up to the teacher like that :lol: ) let me complicate it a bit with a follow up. How do we dance with the should have's and the will do's? I find it very clumsy. Don't you? It's a delicate balance, and I find I tend to want to get stuck with one partner (the former) more than the other. It's a complicated dance to learn a lesson from the past and internalize it someway so that you can apply it in the future.

Also, for bonus credit :roll: :twisted: consider the event that has passed that you wish to do over again because you have learned a great lesson from it, but such an event will likely never happen again. How do you do that dance?

The will do's was easier for me. I keep a small notebook with me most of the time and write down what I think are important to do's. Then I don't have to think about them so much and refer to my notebook when I have time to do something.

The should have's is more tricky because it is kind of a checking yourself, a neurotic habit of not accepting yourself 100%. Accepting that we are not perfect and make mistakes is necessary so we can move on to the next one Jundo's Insta-zazen is helpful with this. I do think about how I can improve or not make the same mistake but at some point (usually the sooner the better) I just let it go, drop all thinking.

Hope this helps
/Rich

[Sloppy_Zen]

Re: shoulds or wills?

People who frequently lament "should" lead very shouldy lives 8)

[monkton]

Re: shoulds or wills?

Hi AlanLa,
Hmmm, dancing, not my forte, (did you see Chugai's video a while back? he's the one that should be answering this), but anyway, here we go: if you take Ms. Should Have out on the floor, quite often, if you dance sensitively, by the time the music stops she will have morphed into Ms. Will Do.

How does that happen? By doing the dance I guess. I don't think it's a complicated dance, but it involves several of those movements where you let your partner go. So don't hang on to whoever you're dancing with - part of the dance is letting them go and come back, so they're always familiar, but always a little different.

And that leads me to the last point. You can't do the same dance twice, it's always at least a little different - either you move differently, or your partner does, or you hear something different in the music. I wouldn't say it's wrong to do the same dance over again and again, go ahead and do it, but it can't but be a different dance and you'll be doing it (and you, and your partner) a disservice by comparing it to the previous attempt.

gassho (2, 3, 4)
Michael

[AlanLa]

Re: shoulds or wills?

Beautiful post, Michael, thank you. I especially like your point about it never being the same dance. I find this to be true. Even if I say to myself, dammit I did it again, I can also often see the change in me, very small steps, but change and improvement, none the less. The will doing better.

It occurs to me that regrets (shoulds) are motivations for future betterment. In this way they are beautiful events to be savored (or danced with) before discarding and moving forward on the Path.

[Shogen]

Re: shoulds or wills?

Shoulds or wills are transient dancing partners. Your partner for life in the dance is I did. Prior to pushing the on button of any event look in the mirror and ask if I did all possible based on my present ability and knowledge that applies to the event. When the answer is yes press the button. Out comes can be products of unknown circumstances that cause tremendous growth in our understanding. I did give 100% and move on with the knowledge gained. I did has always served me well.
gassho

[AlanLa]

Re: shoulds or wills?

Thanks Zak, but what if when we look back we realize we did not give 100% and that is the source of "I should have"?

[Shogen]

Re: shoulds or wills?

Thanks Zak, but what if when we look back we realize we did not give 100% and that is the source of "I should have"?

Al,
The "past" is experienced reality that's impossible to change. If we become focused on any past event, with judgement of its failed outcome and our own effort, what separates the focus from attachment, desire, and dukkha? The "future" that requires our planning is only a possibility. "Now" is reality that requires our absolute attention. The one thing that can be effectively controlled is our next action. The event in which I wrote my response is gone forever. How could "I should have" effect it? Gassho

[disastermouse]

Re: shoulds or wills?

Alan:

From where does your idea of what you should or will do come? This isn't a question designed to invalidate, it just occurs to me that there are a number of different places and views from which it could come.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: shoulds or wills?

It's a long story, but I will try to shorten it. The specific event that prompted this was a student that I have who is fairly difficult. She is very vocal with divergent views that dominate class discussion, which might be ok, but she is often off-topic, and overall she creates quite a bit of friction in the class to the point other students complain about her to me. She's hard to get along with, basically, and that makes it easier to just pull back from her. I have tried to get her to come talk to me about this through various means (hints, invitations, emails, etc.) to no avail. At no point did I ever say to her directly "You need to come and talk to me" however, and I feel I should have, because when she did finally come to talk to me about a completely different matter we finally got to talk about her class behavior. It was a very good discussion; I understood her a lot better and she understood me and the issues a lot better. Afterwards, I was a bit mad at myself for not being more pro-active in getting her to come in and have that conversation. It would have saved considerable anxiety for me, her, and the other students in the class (at least I think so, but there are lots of variables in this long story so there is no way to be sure just yet, but she seems better lately). I should have known better (for various reasons too long to go into) and I should have given 100% and I didn't; I pulled back because she was so difficult. It was a great lesson she taught me, and I expect I will do better the next time I have a difficult student like her.

Anyway, I think I have my answers. I posted this to help me process it and maybe help others process similar should-type situations. I was generic to try and avoid any advice or consolation specific to this event and so that others might get more out of it that way. I just wanted better views on dropping shoulds, and this thread has truly helped my wisdom grow in this area. So thanks to Zak and Michael particularly for that, and your question was a good one Chet, because shoulds are empty, just like everything else.

[Jundo]

Re: shoulds or wills?

Alan:

From where does your idea of what you should or will do come? This isn't a question designed to invalidate, it just occurs to me that there are a number of different places and views from which it could come.

Chet

I- In this crazy/sane practice, we are that view by which there is never a "should" that need be done, nothing to do, nobody to do it or have it done to ... no "it". All is just what it is, each event of life a jewel in its way, an unbroken whole.

II - But human beings, in this daily life, need to live with "shoulds", choices to make based on preferences, "what ifs" and "I wish if onlys". Take our readings of Master Dogen's Shobogenzo-Zuimonki, for example ... that old grouch was all about "you kids should do this" and "you kids shouldn't do that" ...

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III - At it most fruitful, this practice brings us to a dance of merging of the two perspectives. We find that many "shoulds" and "what ifs" and demands upon life can be fully tossed away, like extra weight. GONE and done away with, like a bad pair of shoes! Life is simplified, so much mental trash in the attic is cleaned clean away.

IV - For other "shoulds" and preferences that we cannot toss away (for they are needed to live this rich life), we find that the inner light of Zazen informs, perfumes and guides our choices and interpretations ... resulting in "shoulds" and "preferences" rather different than what they would be without this practice, and a Wiser more Compassionate way of living. This practice, Zazen and the Precepts, are a compass pointing in beneficial and healthful directions of action.

V - For --all-- "shoulds" and "what ifs" ... even the most stubborn ... we find, amazingly, that "Perspective I" and "Perspective II" can be seen at once! (As if out of the left eye, and the right eye, making for a total vision) ... moving forward, regretting the past, worried about the future, learning, choosing hand-in-hand with nothing to change, nothing to fear, no where to go.

Old Dogen was a man of "shoulds" and "what ifs" and "I wish nots" and his own preferences. He moved his monastery out of Kyoto, up to the snowy mountains of Enchizen, because he thought it was the wise things to do ... and sometimes reflected in his poems a "regret" or reflection for the past and a "longing for home" that he had left ...

Ever the same,
Unchanged of hue,
Cherry blossoms
Of my native place:
Spring now has gone.

However, it was grounded in that ground of ever arrived home ... as in this poem ...

Treading along in this dreamlike, illusory world,
Without looking for the traces I may have left;
A cuckoo's song beckons me to return home -
Hearing this, I tilt my head to see
Who has told me to run backwards;
But do not ask me where I am heading,
As I travel in this limitless world
Where every step I take is my home.

[Shogen]

Re: shoulds or wills?

Alan,
Thank you for the time and effort to explain your situation. Your questions always promote great growth.

Jundo,
Thank you for showing both sides of the coin. Not one; not two.

Gassho, Gassho

[AlanLa]

Re: shoulds or wills?

Thanks Jundo (and I should have mentioned these thanks in my last post ops: ).

As a post script to this thread, at least for me, I would like to add that in the form of a lesson that I think shoulds are OK because they lead to will do's in the future, but shoulds in the form of regrets they are not so OK because then we just get stuck in the past. But that's a duality, so let me try again. The dance is ultimately about being in the present, merging should and will do into being and doing in the here and now.