Thought on Buddhism...

[Jen]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

Let me add that myths and legends, such as those about the Buddha(s), carry deep and profound truths about the human condition. The most creative symbolically represent and express many profound Buddhist teachings, and convey them as story. I do not mean to say that we cannot find many many Truths and valuable teachings in even the most fantastic of stories. Tale telling and "heroes" are important to our civilization, as Joseph Campbell and others speak about so beautifully ...

http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Campbell-S ... 1583500545

Thank you for this reminder of Campbell. I believe I will blow the dust off my copy of Power of Myth this evening.

Gasshoe

[disastermouse]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

Hello Everyone,

Thanks to all that have replied so far! I just find it interesting how many people seem to be drawn to the more magical side of religions, than the teaching or practical side. I was drawn to the Buddha's teachings even before I knew much about Buddha himself (if he even existed). I have a Buddha and alter, but I use those as reminders of the path that I am on, not as devotional tools. I'm currently reading Zen Buddhism by D.T. Suzuki, and it brings up the same subject that we are talking about here. Is the personality of these religious leaders the reason for these religions (philosophies) lasting through so many generations. How much of Christianity, or Buddhism, for that matter, still have to do with the actual words that these two spoke? For example, some Buddhist sects believe in reincarnation, but the Buddha himself never spoke on the subject (from what I understand). It's just interesting how teachings change over the years to better fit those living now.

Gassho,

Adam

This really reflects my point of view too.

Chet

[Dorje T]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

I believe that is why Zen Buddhism is vastly different than other forms of Buddhism.

"Mountains walk" - Dogen Zenji

[anista]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

But, you should also remember that he talked and worked in an environment where belief in reincarnation or rebirth was the norm, and that he may have used it as an example to explain the different theories or approaches to people around him.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Hi Fugen

This is something often repeated by those not believing in (literal) rebirth, but it is not true, as far as I know. The notion of rebirth was not commonly accepted during the Buddha's time, hence was not the norm. There were a lot of theories circling about, from those that stipulated that there was no continuum at all, to those that stipulated that the atman was reincarnated, and so on. The Buddha's take on rebirth was a new angle. This implies that it was indeed something that Buddha believed in.

Doesn't mean that we should all believe it now, though.

Sorry if this was OT. We could start another rebirth-thread, if people are not sick of the already existing ones .

Fred ut.

[Jundo]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

But, you should also remember that he talked and worked in an environment where belief in reincarnation or rebirth was the norm, and that he may have used it as an example to explain the different theories or approaches to people around him.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Hi Fugen

This is something often repeated by those not believing in (literal) rebirth, but it is not true, as far as I know. The notion of rebirth was not commonly accepted during the Buddha's time, hence was not the norm. There were a lot of theories circling about, from those that stipulated that there was no continuum at all, to those that stipulated that the atman was reincarnated, and so on. The Buddha's take on rebirth was a new angle. This implies that it was indeed something that Buddha believed in.

Doesn't mean that we should all believe it now, though.

Sorry if this was OT. We could start another rebirth-thread, if people are not sick of the already existing ones .

Fred ut.

I am reasonably sure (although we cannot know for sure) that the historical Buddha, Guatama, believed in rebirth and taught post-mortem rebirth. I do think, from my reading of history, that it was widely accepted in the India of his day in Brahmanism and Jainism and the like ... and that the Buddha's interpretation was a variation on the general theme, although more in the details than the general system.

But even if the Buddha believed in it (we cannot be sure, as the earliest Sutta were not written down until centuries after his death .... although it seems likely that he would have given indirect evidence and the culture of the time) I do not think it necessary to believe in every single point and word of the Buddha's (often conflicting) reported ideas ... lock stock and barrel ... or to think he needed to be right on every single thing out of his mouth (I have read some opinions attributed to him on the cause of earthquakes ... well, it was a good perspective for a man living 2500 years ago, and even there is a little truth there) ...

13. Then the Blessed One said: "There are eight reasons, Ananda, eight causes for a mighty earthquake to arise. What are those eight?

14. "This great earth, Ananda, is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. And when, Ananda, mighty atmospheric disturbances take place, the liquid is agitated. And with the agitation of the liquid, tremors of the earth arise. This is the first reason, the first cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.

15. "Again, Ananda, when an ascetic or holy man of great power, one who has gained mastery of his mind, or a deity who is mighty and potent, develops intense concentration on the delimited aspect of the earth element, and to a boundless degree on the liquid element, he, too, causes the earth to tremble, quiver, and shake. This is the second reason, the second cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.

16-21. "Again, Ananda, when the Bodhisatta departs from the Tusita realm and descends into his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending; and when the Bodhisatta comes out from his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending; and when the Tathagata becomes fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment; when the Tathagata sets rolling the excellent Wheel of the Dhamma; when the Tathagata renounces his will to live on; and when the Tathagata comes to pass away into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains — then, too, Ananda, this great earth trembles, quivers, and shakes.

"These, Ananda, are the eight reasons, the eight causes for a great earthquake to arise. 27
re%20those%20eight%3F%20%2014.%20%22This%20great%2 0earth%2C%20Ananda%2C%20is%20established%20upon%20 liquid%2C%20the%20liquid%20upon%20the%20atmosphere %2C%20and%20the%20atmosphere%20upon%20space.%20And %20when%2C%20Ananda%2C%20mighty%20atmospheric%20di sturbances%20take%20place%2C%20the%20liquid%20is%2 0agitated.%20And%20with%20the%20agitation%20of%20t he%20liquid%2C%20tremors%20of%20the%20earth%20aris e.%20This%20is%20the%20first%20reason%2C%20the%20f irst%20cause%20for%20the%20arising%20of%20mighty%2 0earthquakes.%20%2015.%20%22Again%2C%20Ananda%2C%2 0when%20an%20ascetic%20or%20holy%20man%20of%20grea t%20power%2C%20one%20who%20has%20gained%20mastery% 20of%20his%20mind%2C%20or%20a%20deity%20who%20is%2 0mighty%20and%20potent%2C%20develops%20intense%20c oncentration%20on%20the%20delimited%20aspect%20of% 20the%20earth%20element%2C%20and%20to%20a%20boundl ess%20degree%20on%20the%20liquid%20element%2C%20he %2C%20too%2C%20causes%20the%20earth%20to%20tremble %2C%20quiver%2C%20and%20shake.%20This%20is%20the%2 0second%20reason%2C%20the%20second%20cause%20for%2 0the%20arising%20of%20mighty%20earthquakes.%20%201 6-21.%20%22Again%2C%20Ananda%2C%20when%20the%20Bodhi satta%20departs%20from%20the%20Tusita%20realm%20an d%20descends%20into%20his%20mother's%20womb%2C%20m indfully%20and%20clearly%20comprehending%3B%20and% 20when%20the%20Bodhisatta%20comes%20out%20from%20h is%20mother's%20womb%2C%20mindfully%20and%20clearl y%20comprehending%3B%20and%20when%20the%20Tathagat a%20becomes%20fully%20enlightened%20in%20unsurpass ed%2C%20supreme%20Enlightenment%3B%20when%20the%20 Tathagata%20sets%20rolling%20the%20excellent%20Whe el%20of%20the%20Dhamma%3B%20when%20the%20Tathagata %20renounces%20his%20will%20to%20live%20on%3B%20an d%20when%20the%20Tathagata%20comes%20to%20pass%20a way%20into%20the%20state%20of%20Nibbana%20in%20whi ch%20no%20element%20of%20clinging%20remains%20%E2% 80%94%20then%2C%20too%2C%20Ananda%2C%20this%20grea t%20earth%20trembles%2C%20quivers%2C%20and%20shake s.%20%20%22These%2C%20Ananda%2C%20are%20the%20eigh t%20reasons%2C%20the%20eight%20causes%20for%20a%20 great%20earthquake%20to%20arise.%2027&pg=PA75#v=on epage&q=13.%20Then%20the%20Blessed%20One%20said:%2 0%22There%20are%20eight%20reasons,%20Ananda,%20eig ht%20causes%20for%20a%20mighty%20earthquake%20to%2 0arise.%20What%20are%20those%20eight?%20%2014.%20% 22This%20great%20earth,%20Ananda,%20is%20establish ed%20upon%20liquid,%20the%20liquid%20upon%20the%20 atmosphere,%20and%20the%20atmosphere%20upon%20spac e.%20And%20when,%20Ananda,%20mighty%20atmospheric% 20disturbances%20take%20place,%20the%20liquid%20is %20agitated.%20And%20with%20the%20agitation%20of%2 0the%20liquid,%20tremors%20of%20the%20earth%20aris e.%20This%20is%20the%20first%20reason,%20the%20fir st%20cause%20for%20the%20arising%20of%20mighty%20e arthquakes.%20%2015.%20%22Again,%20Ananda,%20when% 20an%20ascetic%20or%20holy%20man%20of%20great%20po wer,%20one%20who%20has%20gained%20mastery%20of%20h is%20mind,%20or%20a%20deity%20who%20is%20mighty%20 and%20potent,%20develops%20intense%20concentration %20on%20the%20delimited%20aspect%20of%20the%20eart h%20element,%20and%20to%20a%20boundless%20degree%2 0on%20the%20liquid%20element,%20he,%20too,%20cause s%20the%20earth%20to%20tremble,%20quiver,%20and%20 shake.%20This%20is%20the%20second%20reason,%20the% 20second%20cause%20for%20the%20arising%20of%20migh ty%20earthquakes.%20%2016-21.%20%22Again,%20Ananda,%20when%20the%20Bodhisatt a%20departs%20from%20the%20Tusita%20realm%20and%20 descends%20into%20his%20mother's%20womb,%20mindful ly%20and%20clearly%20comprehending;%20and%20when%2 0the%20Bodhisatta%20comes%20out%20from%20his%20mot her's%20womb,%20mindfully%20and%20clearly%20compre hending;%20and%20when%20the%20Tathagata%20becomes% 20fully%20enlightened%20in%20unsurpassed,%20suprem e%20Enlightenment;%20when%20the%20Tathagata%20sets %20rolling%20the%20excellent%20Wheel%20of%20the%20 Dhamma;%20when%20the%20Tathagata%20renounces%20his %20will%20to%20live%20on;%20and%20when%20the%20Tat hagata%20comes%20to%20pass%20away%20into%20the%20s tate%20of%20Nibbana%20in%20which%20no%20element%20 of%20clinging%20remains%20%E2%80%94%20then,%20too, %20Ananda,%20this%20great%20earth%20trembles,%20qu ivers,%20and%20shakes.%20%20%22These,%20Ananda,%20 are%20the%20eight%20reasons,%20the%20eight%20cause s%20for%20a%20great%20earthquake%20to%20arise.%202 7&f=false">http://books.google.com/books?id=0Nt2ih ... 27&f=false

As long as the Buddha has been right on his most vital teachings ... the Four Noble Truths, Dukkha, Impermanence and what to do with all that ... I do not care whether he was right or wrong on many side issues.

I used to describe the Buddha as the "Henry Ford" of Buddhism, who perfected the idea of putting an engine on 4 wheels, and the "Model T" car ... but now, after centuries of working out some kinks ... we have the Prius! (At least, I used to use that analogy until the Prius was in recent news! ops: )

I personally am an agnostic on these issues, meaning that (like many Zen practitioners now and in the past), I am mostly concerned with the life at hand ... and will let its impact on all future lives (if any) take care of itself. Live in a good way now, and any good effects will have the effects they have.

We have had threads on this in the past. Here are a couple of them ..

viewtopic.php?p=17953#p17953

viewtopic.php?p=15655#p15655

Gassho, J.

PS - Tricycle had an interesting essay about our tendency to put too much faith and over-reliance in what the founder of the religion may or may not have said ... I mean, in America for example, one might respect "Thomas Jefferson" as a founder and genius who put the basic wonderful system of the republic in place, without basing every modern policy decision on what he would or would not have done ... or completely discounting him for some errors. Same for Buddhism!

http://www.wisdom-books.com/FocusDetail.asp?FocusRef=80

[anista]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

I personally am an agnostic on these issues, meaning that (like many Zen practitioners now and in the past), I am mostly concerned with the life at hand ... and will let its impact on all future lives (if any) take care of itself. Live in a good way now, and any good effects will have the effects they have.

OK, how about this: would you agree with me that orthopraxy is more important in a sangha (like Treeleaf, for example) than orthodoxy?

[Jundo]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

I personally am an agnostic on these issues, meaning that (like many Zen practitioners now and in the past), I am mostly concerned with the life at hand ... and will let its impact on all future lives (if any) take care of itself. Live in a good way now, and any good effects will have the effects they have.

OK, how about this: would you agree with me that orthopraxy is more important in a sangha (like Treeleaf, for example) than orthodoxy?

Hi Philip,

Hmmm ... if I understand the question correctly (and I probably do not) ...

Buddhism including Zen Practice (in Dogen's view, for example) is generally held to consist of both Right Action and Right Understanding. We have certain viewpoints gathered on and off the cushion (through old, dusty Buddhist books), but this is meaningless until we realize this practice in actual life-doing. One should not neglect either the head or the body (not two). Wisdom and Compassion are only realized when realized within (realized meaning "understood") and realized (realized meaning "made real") though actual implementation in life. "Correct belief and understanding" supports "correct action", and "correct action" teaches and fleshes out "correct beliefs and understanding".

On some questions, we have very clear and definite perspectives, and it is probably necessary to pretty much be "Orthodox" on the belief in order to practice Buddhism or Shikantaza Zen Practice. (recognizing "impermanence" is one such example ... although, even here, details of understanding may vary).

On others ... we leave it open, or drop the question. Voices can disagree. I believe rebirth is one of these questions (although some would disagree with me, and put it in the inviolable doctrine category. Most modern Zen Buddhists in the West do not consider the question central to Practice).

I think I said many words, but did not answer your question. :?

Gassho, J

[anista]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

I think I said many words, but did not answer your question. :?

Gassho, J

You answered my question just fine. Thanks!

Fred ut, and gassho.

[wulfd87]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

I came from a "strong atheist" perspective before deciding to look at Buddhism as a whole. I have always had an "urge", so to speak, of looking at the teachings of Buddhism and the further I delved into it, the more it began to "click" with me.

With some of the books I have read on Soto Zen Buddhism and with the wonderful videos for beginners by Jundo and Taigu, I have learned to accept everything, even from the teachings of Buddha himself, with a grain of salt. I took the teachings at hand and found the ones that worked and disposed of the ones that didn't. Until the day when we can go back to the past (unlikely) we will never know if anything that has been passed down from generation to generation is truely 100% real. I agree with this statement by Jundo:

"I personally am an agnostic on these issues, meaning that (like many Zen practitioners now and in the past), I am mostly concerned with the life at hand ... and will let its impact on all future lives (if any) take care of itself. Live in a good way now, and any good effects will have the effects they have."

While it is nice to think about the past and future, too many people become, for lack of a better term, obsessed with it. Yes we must learn from our past mistakes and yes we need to look ahead, but we must also understand that we have to focus on the know. What happened, happened and cannot be undone and the future in its entirety is out of our hands.

Religion, no matter what you believe in and no matter how long it has been around, will have faults. The people, saints, Buddhas, prophets, etc. will be looked at over time as "god-like". It's "human" nature to put people in this kind of status because we live in a life that is mundane, boring, etc. and people out there want to have or believe in something or someone that is bigger, better, brighter than them. Is this neccesarily wrong? Depending on how you view it it could be. But that is up to the person to decide.

To finish, and I don't like to go to deep into this subject, did Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Krishna, etc. exist? Maybe they did. Of course following the teachings of Buddha, I would like to think he did in fact exist, but not as a supernatural being, but as a normal man that learned to see the life we live for what it really is, when the biggest majority of the people believe that a god or gods exist, that something unknown to us controls everything that happens in our lives, or that someday we will be "saved" by a god and leave this mundane, dangerous, destructive world. Does this necessarily mean that the views I have are better than everyone elses? Absoluetly not. It just works for me, and obviously for a lot of people as well :wink: . Do I wish for other people to follow or consider the teachings of Buddha? Do I wish that they would see live for what it is? Of course, we all do, just like Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. would love for us to believe in their seperate teachings. I'm not saying that anyone here says this, but too many people go around saying, "What you believe in is wrong. My religion is the one true religion and unless you believe in what I believe in your useless." You can understand how wrong this is.

Okay, maybe I went a little longer on that one :P . The fact is that as practitioners of Soto Zen Buddhism, and even with all aspects of Buddhism, we can't say it is 100% true because we cannot prove it and so we must focus on the teachings or schools that help us and use them to, as Jundo said:

"Live in a good way now, and any good effects will have the effects they have."

Gassho,
David

[Dorje T]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

My first reply to this thread was perhaps a little too "concise"

Although others have already made a similar points - sort of - I think i want to explain my view on this a little more..

I think concern over the "true vs false" status of phenomenon is sometimes misplaced or unnecessary.

Whether you read a book of fiction or a book of non-fiction, your mind can become distracted and "caught up" in the story of what youre reading, or it may not be.

And there is also this..

You can read - as example- the "fact based" news paper and while doing this you may notice your mind and emotions as they are swayed from one extreme to another by the stories you find there. Even though youre reading about things that you can identify with as being true and possible - aka "factual" you are pulled and pushed by these "facts". This is mental-emotional entanglement until you remember your zen mind. From a zen perspective, such entanglement or "distraction" has a "fictional" or false basis you might say.

On the other hand - you can also read in a story, the "fictional" account of something very dramatic, maybe about love or death or some emotional situation in a "made up" story line that speaks to a deeper level of our experience - deeper than the literal "fact based" level of what is physically possible or not physically possible. Such a "fictional" story can and has been known to move people to actually change their lives, to see things in a different and dare I say "truer" way.

What really is truth and what is fiction?

Some people watching a movie always find it necessary to ask, "Is that really possible? Did that really happen?" Watching a movie this way can be annoying and distracting.

Yes, of coarse, watching a movie itself is a form of distraction from so called "real life". But if you're already in the theater, if you've already paid for your ticket, why not trust your innate ability to "get what you are supposed to get" from the show as the drama of it unfolds?

I practice Vajrayana as well as Zen and so I sometimes allow myself to believe in Buddha lands and flying wisdom beings and rainbow bodies. I give myself permission to believe in these things.

But what is belief?

It is an experience, a "thing" if you will. All experiences, all "things" are by their very nature temporary or "empty-interdependent" phenomena.

In Vajrayana, the mind is elaborated on and is seen to have many levels. This 'elaborating on' is part of the Vajrayana path. This is different in Zen. In Zen this is all dropped. But even so, my old zen teacher would have still challenged my 'assumption level' of mind that was so concerned with distinguishing between "physically possible" and "not physically possible". Maybe he would have advised to "drop that" as well. I don't know.

[Jundo]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

My first reply to this thread was perhaps a little too "concise"

Although others have already made a similar points - sort of - I think i want to explain my view on this a little more..

I think concern over the "true vs false" status of phenomenon is sometimes misplaced or unnecessary.

It is a 'Truth' that all of life is a mind created fiction ... a bit of theatre manufactured. That's Buddhism 101.

It is also a Truth' that each moment of life is just as Real as Real can be ... a theatre show, perhaps, but the only show in town, with each bit of stage scenery, line of dialogue and character sacred in its way! Each instant is 'Truth'. That's Dogen 101.

And it is true that fictional stories, fables, films, legends and parables can help us taste Truth, while the "facts" we read in the newspapers or 'online' these days are never the complete picture (and often quite twisted). It is hard to separate fact from fiction.

Part of the Buddhist Way is to untangle these various Truths and fictions, and not get 'em all mixed up. Things we take as "true" are often not completely so, things we take as "false" may be closer to the Truth.

Most people think the events of their lives are completely real, and thus do not know about the mind created fiction (which can be reconfigured, if not totally undone). They believe that this life theatre is the reality, and cannot see behind the curtain.

Many Buddhists and others think the purpose of Practice is simply to see behind the theatre curtain, to the "True" empty back stage ... and they miss the beauty of the show's comedy and tragedy (which they mistakenly think is merely a lie, thus best to ignore or abandon in this life or the next). That's a one sided view, and misses the "Big Picture" of the whole spectacle. Enjoy the show! Even allow yourself to fall into it, be part of it ... (though you want to keep in mind that appearances of its ultimate reality are deceiving).

I do not think it is a problem if a fictional story, fable, film, puppet show, Buddhist parable, strange legend, wild Sutra or the like helps us realize some deep lesson. Each may say something, express something, about the world and human condition in its way. As well, we can realize the perfect "really just what it is" nature of all, each tale a perfectly what it is tale. But I think there may be a problem when we begin to think that the fictional story, fable, film, puppet show, Buddhist parable, legend, wild Sutra is a true tale about real humans, super-creatures and events.

That may just be the same mistake as thinking this theatre world and its fictional characters (us) is a completely true tale, replacing one fictional show with another mistaken belief. Thinking that some of the Buddhas and wild creatures in old Buddhist stories are "real" would be as much a mistake as seeing Batman and Peter Pan as real.

On the other hand, learning the lessons taught by Batman and Peter Pan is good to do. One of those lessons is that our own lives are more like "Batman and Peter Pan" creations than we usually know.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

[wulfd87]

Re: Thought on Buddhism...

Jundo......bravo!

I really don't know where my path on Buddhism would be without the teachings of Jundo and Taigu and the always helpful and caring members of Treeleaf. This topic is always kind of sketchy because people see it differently (life, rebirth, etc.). But I love being able to come on here, check the topics that I'm interested in, and get always great answers, further bringing light on my path and to meditate, practice, study and the like.

Gassho,
David