Shobogenzo Study Group?

[disastermouse]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

The books have arrived and I'm starting with the Bendowa, apparently.

It sort of blows my mind that Soto or Soto/Rinzai Buddhism seems to be the predominant form of Zen in America, and yet there is so little access to English translations of our founder's arguably greatest written work. It would have been great if this was available when I was starting my engagement with Buddhism.

Chet

[Shogen]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

Hey Chet,
Isn't it amazing how strong will always seems to overcome obstacles and find the way. I think Dogen had something to say about it.
Gassho Zak

[Jundo]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

Dogen was a very highly educated, intellectual, "head like a library of old Zen/Buddhist books", surprisingly conservative (as were most Zen teachers, in fact) guy who was highly trained and conversant in the "classics" and was working from them (the Shobogenzo is wall to wall references and quotes from Sutras, old Koans, obscure but important bits of Tendai Buddhist teachings, old poems, Confucian classics, and the like). ... Thus (as in listening to Jazz), it is --both-- a matter of letting the sound and feeling wash over one, --and-- having some musical understanding of where the musician was "coming from" what he was "trying to do" and how he "got there"

I found a great, short example of this, of Dogen at his wildest and best. Thought to post it for folks who might not get what the fuss is about.

The great 'Dogenologist' translator and historian, Prof. Carl Bielefeldt, has just released his brand new translation of Shobogenzo Bussho (Buddha-Nature) for the Soto Zen Text Project.

http://hcbss.stanford.edu/research/proj ... intro.html

I have been slowly reading it to compare with the Nishijima-Cross version (which, so far, seems to come out very well. The two versions are incredibly close, and I find Nishijima-Cross often captures the "feel of the music" a bit better).

Anyway ... here are a couple of paragraphs that are playing with the famous phrase "all living beings in their entirety have Buddha Nature". Dogen first plays with an ambiguity in the grammar to change that to "all living beings in their entirety are Buddha Nature". But he does not stop there ...

If you can hear the perspective that "Buddha Nature" is not a "thing" that we become or have or develop ... but is radical, existential being that leaves nothing out, whole beyond whole, the reality of reality (something like that ) ... you might get a feel for what Dogen is going for here ... It is everything leaving nothing out, yet beyond categories (something like that ) ...

What is the essential point of the World Honored One’s saying, “All living beings in their entirety have the buddha nature”? It is turning the dharma wheel of the saying, “what is it that comes like this?” One speaks of “living beings,” or “sentient beings,” or “the multitude of beings,” or “the multitude of types.” The term “entirety of being” refers to “living beings,” “the multitude of beings.” That is, the “entirety of being” is the buddha nature; “one entirety” of the “entirety of being” is called “living beings.” At this very moment, the interior and exterior of living beings is the “entirety of being” of the buddha nature. This is not only the “skin, flesh, bones, and marrow” singly transmitted; for “you have got my skin, flesh, bones, and marrow.”

We should realize that the “being” that is here made the “entirety of being” by the buddha nature is not the being of being and non-being. The “entirety of being” is the word of the buddha, the tongue of the buddha, the eyes of the buddhas and ancestors, the nose of the patch-robed monk. Furthermore, the term “entirety of being” is not initial being, not original being, not marvelous being; how much less is it conditioned being or deluded being. It has nothing to do with the likes of mind and object, nature and attribute. Therefore, the circumstantial and primary [recompense] of the “entirety of being” of living beings is not by any means the generative power of karma, not deluded conditioned origination, not of its own accord, not the practice and verification of spiritual powers. Were the “entirety of being” of living beings generated by karma, or conditioned origination, or of its own accord, then the verification of the way of the nobles as well as the bodhi of the buddhas and the eyes of the buddhas and ancestors would also be the generative power of karma, conditioned origination, and of its own accord. And this is not the case

The Professor's footnotes clear things up a bit ... (emphasis on 'a bit' :shock: )

“Essential point” (sh?shi ??): A common expression for the “purport,” or “message” of a statement.

“Turning the dharma wheel of the saying “what is it that comes like this?” (ze j?mo butsu inmo rai no d? ten b?rin ????????????): I.e., presumably, a Buddhist teaching equivalent to the famous question put to the Chan master Nanyue Huairang ???? by the Sixth Ancestor, Huineng ??. The question is likely a play on the term “Thus Come One” (nyorai ??; tath?gata), an epithet of the buddhas.

The Chan Master Dahui of Mt. Nanyue (descendant of Caoxi, named Huairang) visited the Sixth Ancestor. The Ancestor asked him, “Where do you come from?”
The Master said, “I come from the National Teacher An on Mt. Song.”
The Ancestor said, “What is it that comes like this?”
The Master was without means [to answer]. After attending [the Ancestor] for eight years, he finally understood the previous conversation. Thereupon, he announced to the Ancestor, “I've understood what the reverend put to me when I first came: ‘What is it that comes like this?’”
The Ancestor asked, “How do you understand it?”
The Master replied, “To say it's like anything wouldn't hit it.”
The Ancestor said, “Then is it contingent on practice and verification?”
The Master answered, “Practice and verification are not nonexistent; they cannot be defiled.”
The Ancestor said, “Just this ‘not defiled’ is what the buddhas bear in mind. You're also like this, I'm also like this, and all the ancestors of the Western Heavens [i. e., India] are also like this.”


“Sentient beings” (uj? ??); “the multitude of beings” (gunj? ??); “multitude of types” (gunrui ??): Terms regularly used as synonyms for “living beings.” The point here would seem to be that all these terms (as well as the synonymous “multitude of beings” [gun’u ??] in the following sentence) may be referred to as the “entirety of being.”

“The term entirety of being” (shitsu’u no gon ????): D?gen here creates a neologism from the adverb shitsu and the verb u in the phrase shitsu u bussh? ????, translated in the quotation as “in their entirety have the buddha nature.” The word play relies on the fact that the term u ? means both “to have” and “to exist” and is regularly used in philosophical discourse as a noun for “being.” The resultant expression might also be rendered “all existents” or, more simply, “everything.”

“One entirety of the entirety of being” (shitsuu no isshitsu ?????): Presumably the point is that “living beings” represent but one type within the “entirety of being” — with, perhaps, the added suggestion that any one type is in some sense one with the entire set.

“Skin, flesh, bones, and marrow” (hi niku kotsu zui ????): An expression, very common in D?gen’s writings for the essence or truth or entirety of something or someone, as handed down in the Chan tradition; from the famous story of Bodhidharma’s testing of four disciples, to whom he said of each in turn that he (or, in one case, she) had got his skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. For the story, see Supplemental Note 2.

“Singly transmitted” (tanden ??): A term commonly used in Chan to describe the passing down of the dharma from master to disciple; here, no doubt a reference to the transmission from Bodhidharma to Huike. Though the term suggests (and in some cases is used to indicate) a lineage in which there is only one representative in each generation (e.g., see below, Note 48. “Single transmission”), it regularly appears in contexts where the graph tan is better understand as “unique,” “pure”, or “simple” (e.g., see below, Note 29. “Singly transmit it”); closely related to the notion of direct transmission “from mind to mind” (ishin denshin ????).

“For you have got my skin, flesh, bones, and marrow” (nyo toku go hi niku kotsu zui naru ga yue ni ?????????????): Quoting Bodhidharma’s statement, “you have got” to each of his four disciples (see above, Supplemental Note 2). Presumably, the implication here is that the statement concerns not just Bodhidharma’s “single transmission” to Huike but the affirmation of the buddha nature in all beings (as proposed, e.g., in Sh?b?genz? keiteki ?????? 2:185).

---

“The being that is here made the entirety of being by the buddha nature” (ima bussh? ni shitsuu seraruru u ????????????): An odd locution, presumably meaning something like, “the term ‘being’ in the expression ‘entirety of being’ that is here being identified with the buddha nature.”

“The tongue of the buddha” (butsuzetsu ??): No doubt here used as a figure of speech for the speech of the buddha.

“The nose of the patch-robed monk” (n?s? bik? ????): The term “patch-robed monk” (n?s? ??) is a playful self-reference used by Chan monks. The “nose” (or “nostril”; bik? ??) is often used in Chan texts to indicate (a) the person, especially (b) that which is essential to the person, or (c) the very essence or identity of someone or something; a term occuring frequently in the Sh?b?genz?.

“Initial being” (shi’u ??); “original being” (hon’u ??); “marvelous being” (my?’u ??); “conditioned being” (en’u ??); “deluded being” (m?’u ??): A series of terms expressing modes of existence discussed in Buddhist thought. The first, “initial being,” while not itself particularly common, is here contrasted with the familiar “original being,” a term used to express the fundamental reality from which the phenomenal world emerges. The expression “marvelous being” is probably best known in the phrase “true emptiness and marvelous being” (shink? my?’u ????), where it expresses the ultimate emptiness of phenomena. The term “conditioned being” suggests that which exists as a result of conditions — i.e., the conditioned dharmas of dependent origination (engi ??; prat?ya-samutp?da); “deluded being” suggests that which exists as a result of deluded thoughts — i.e., the false objects of our misguided discrimination (funbetsu ??; vikalpa).

“Mind and object, nature and attribute” (shin ky? sh? s? ????): Two standard pairs in Buddhist thought: the mind, or thought (citta), and the objects of thought or of the senses (vi?aya, ?lambana); and the nature, or essence (svabh?va), of a thing, and its attributes, or characteristics (lak?ana).

“Circumstantial and primary recompense” (esh? ??): A standard Buddhist term for the results of past karma reflected respectively in the circumstances into which one is born and the mental and physical makeup of the person; an abbreviation of eh? sh?b? ????. Here, perhaps to be understood as “the quality of the experience” of living beings as the “entirety of being.”

“The generative power of karma” (g? z?j? riki ????): I.e., the power of karma to produce phenomena; adhipati.

“Deluded conditioned origination” (m? engi ???): An unusual expression, probably indicating phenomena that arise as a result of deluded thoughts. Given the apparent distinction, above, between “conditioned being” and “deluded being,” one is tempted to parse the expression “deluded or conditioned origination.”

“Of its own accord” (h?ni ??): A loose translation of a term indicating what is true of itself or by necessity, what is naturally or inevitably so; used to translate Sanskrit niyati (“destiny”).

“Practice and verification of spiritual powers” (jints? shush? ????): I.e., mastery of the “supernormal knowledges” (jints? ??; abhijñ?); here, presumably, the ability in particular to manifest oneself in diverse bodies and circumstances — one of the powers known as the “bases of spiritual power” (jinsoku ??; ?ddhi-p?da).

“Verification of the way of the nobles” (shosh? no sh?d? ?????): I.e., the spiritual attainments of advanced adepts on the Buddhist path. The phrase “verification of the way” is a somewhat forced translation of sh?d? ??, a common expression for Buddhist spiritual awakening; here, as in many other contexts, the term d? ? could be taken as a rendering of bodhi. The translation “nobles” takes shosh? ?? in its Buddhist sense of ?rya, those who have transcended the state of the “commoner” (bonbu ??; p?thagjana); the term could also be rendered in a more “Chinese” idiom as “the sages” or “holy ones.”

[Hans]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

Hello Jundo,

thank you for posting Mr. Bielefeldt's intriguing comments.

Btw, Steven Heine's/Dale Wright's new book ZEN MASTERS arrived in the post a few days ago. Though I only just started reading it, I feel like recommending it already. There's a whole chapter on Dogen in it as well.

Gassho,

Hans

[Jundo]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

Here is another section of Bussho that really shows that wonder of word-play and grammar bending in Dogen-jazz ...

Going back and forth with the footnotes will give a taste for that. As an entrance way into this portion, it might help to know that Dogen often used question words like "What" to refer to the ineffable, the wordless, the beyond expression whatever (i.e., the indescribable ultimateness that is 'emptiness' or 'buddha nature') ... and words such as "name" to refer to the true and ultimate identity of concrete things of this relative world ... and words such as 'this' to refer to what is right here before one's eyes and one's eyes too.

However, Dogen's way of expression, by twisting up all of it to capture various Truths, goes far beyond the simplistic formulaic description of the relationship of "what" "name" "this" etc. that I just wrote! His music expresses that what-name-thisness.

Dogen bases his word-play on this famous Koan ... For easier reading, Bussho sections are in BLUE, and footnotes in normal type ... After after getting a bit of what Dogen was doing with the puns and word twists and syncopated grammar ... forget all that, and just let the whole thing wash through you like listening to good music ...

As a boy of seven, [Chan Master Zhao Daman] met the Fourth Ancestor, the Chan Master Dayi, on the road in Huangmei. The ancestor saw that, although a child, the masterâ??s build was remarkably fine, different from that of an ordinary child. Seeing this, the ancestor asked, â??Whatâ??s your name?â?
The master answered, â??I have a name, but itâ??s not an ordinary name.â?
The ancestor said, â??What is this name?â?
The master answered, â??Itâ??s the buddha nature.â?
The ancestor said, â??You have no buddha nature.â?
The master replied, â??Itâ??s because the buddha nature is empty that you say I have none.â?
The ancestor, recognizing that he was a vessel of the dharma, made him his attendant. Later, he transmitted the treasury of the eye of the true dharma. [The master] resided on Dongshan at Huangmei, where he greatly wielded the â??dark style.â?18

18.
â??You have no buddha natureâ? (nyo mu busshō 汝ç?¡ä½?æ?§): Or, more collquially, â??you donâ??t have a buddha natureâ?; a fairly common retort in Chan texts. In scholastic Buddhism, the lack of buddha nature makes one an icchantika (yichanti ä¸?é?¡æ, someone without the potential to achieve the perfect awakening of a buddha.

â??Dark styleâ? (genpÅ« ç??風): Or â??mysterious styleâ?; a common expression for deep teachings.

ã?ã?ã?ã??はばã?なはちã?ç¥?師のé?å?ã? 'å?究ã?ã??にã?å??ç¥?ã?はく汝ä½?å§?はã?ã ã®å®?æ?¨ã?ã??ã??ã??ã?ã?はä½?å??人の人ã? ã??ã?ä½?å§?のå§?ã?ã??ã??なã??ぢはä½?å§?とç? ²èª¬ã?ã??なã??ã??ã?とへば吾亦å¦?æ?¯ã?æ±ä º¦å¦?æ?¯ã¨é?å?ã?ã??ã?ã?とã?ã??

Therefore, when investigating these sayings of the ancestral masters, there is an essential point to the Fourth Ancestorâ??s saying, â??Whatâ??s your name?â? In ancient times, there was a person from the country of He [â??whatâ?], who had the He family name. He is saying to him, â??You are of the â??whatâ? family.â? It is like saying, â??Iâ??m also like this, youâ??re also like this.â?19

19.
â??Whatâ??s your name?â? (nyo ka shō 汝ä½?å§?): Dōgen begins here a play with the terms in the quotation. First up is a Chinese version of the old Abbott and Costello joke, â??Whoâ??s on first?â? The game puns on the Chinese interrogative he ä½? (â??whatâ?), also used as a family name.

For those who don't know the Abbot and Costello routine ...

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml

â??From the country of Whatâ? (gakokunin ä½?å??人): Or â??a citizen of the land of What.â? Reference to a dialogue found in the Jingde chuandeng lu æ?¯å¾³å?³ç??é?² (T.51:433a9-10) and elsewhere; the version in the Liandeng huiyao 聯ç??æ??要 (ZZ.79[1557]:257a21-22):

æ³?å·?大è?æ??å?ã?å¸«ä½?å§?ã??師äºã?å§?ä½?ã?? æ??äºã?ä½?å??人ã??師äºã?ä½?å??人ã??

Dasheng of Sizhou would be asked, â??Master, what is your name?â?
The master would answer, â??My name is He [â??whatâ??].â?
Or he would be asked, â??What country are you from?â?
The master answered, â??Iâ??m from the country of He [â??whatâ??].â?

â??Iâ??m also like this, youâ??re also like thisâ? (go nyaku nyo ze nyo nyaku nyo ze 吾亦å¦?æ?¯æ±äº¦å¦?æ?¯): From the words of the Sixth Ancestor, Huineng, in the dialogue with Nanyue Huairang::

The Chan Master Dahui of Mt. Nanyue (descendant of Caoxi, named Huairang) visited the Sixth Ancestor. The Ancestor asked him, â??Where do you come from?â?
The Master said, â??I come from the National Teacher An on Mt. Song.â?
The Ancestor said, â??What is it that comes like this?â?
The Master was without means [to answer]. After attending [the Ancestor] for eight years, he finally understood the previous conversation. Thereupon, he announced to the Ancestor, â??I've understood what the reverend put to me when I first came: â??What is it that comes like this?â??â?
The Ancestor asked, â??How do you understand it?â?
The Master replied, â??To say it's like anything wouldn't hit it.â?
The Ancestor said, â??Then is it contingent on practice and verification?â?
The Master answered, â??Practice and verification are not nonexistent; they cannot be defiled.â?
The Ancestor said, â??Just this â??not defiledâ?? is what the buddhas bear in mind. You're also like this, I'm also like this, and all the ancestors of the Western Heavens [i. e., India] are also like this.â?

äº?ç¥?ã?はくã?å§?即æ??ã?ä¸æ?¯å¸¸å§?ã??ã?だ¯ã??ã??はã?æ??即å§?は常å§?にã?ã??ã?ã?å¸¸å §?は即æ??に不æ?¯ãªã??ã??

The Fifth Ancestor said, â??I have a name, but itâ??s not an ordinary name.â? That is, â??being as itself a nameâ? is not an ordinary name; an ordinary name â??is not rightâ? for â??being as itself.â?20

å??ç¥?ã?はくæ?¯ä½?å§?はã?ä½?はæ?¯ãªã??ã?æ? ¯ã?'ä½?ã?きã?ã??ã??ã?ã?ã??å§?なã??ã??ä½?なã ??ã?ã??ã??はæ?¯ã®ã??ã?なã??ã?æ?¯ãªã??ã?ã??ã ??はä½?のè?½ãªã??ã??å§?はæ?¯ä¹?ä½?ä¹?なã??ã?? ã?ã??ã?'è'¿æ¹¯ã«ã??é»?ã?ã?è?¶æ¹¯ã«ã??é»?ã?ã? å®¶å¸¸ã®è?¶é£¯ã¨ã??ã?ã??なã??ã??

The Fourth Ancestorâ??s saying, â??What is this name?â? means â??whatâ? is â??thisâ?; he has â??what-edâ? â??thisâ? â?? this is his â??name.â? For what makes it â??whatâ? is â??thisâ?; making it â??thisâ? is the function of â??what.â? His â??nameâ? is both â??thisâ? and â??what.â? We fix it as artemisia tea; we fix it as green tea; we make it our â??everyday tea and rice.â?21

20.

â??Being as itself a nameâ? (u soku shō æ??即å§?): The translation struggles in vain to capture this play with words. Dōgen has here reversed the order of the three graphs shō soku u å§?即æ??, translated as â??I have a name,â? in the process, once again shifting the meaning of u æ?? from â??haveâ? to â??beâ? (see above, Note 4. â??The term entirety of beingâ?) and redoing the function of soku 即 from the concessive (â??as for a name, I may have one, but . . .â?) to an emphatic copula (â??is preciselyâ?).

â??An ordinary name is not right for being as itselfâ? (jōshō wa sokuu ni fuze nari 常å§?は即æ??に不æ?¯ãªã??): Another rearrangement of the Chinese terms in the quotation. Here, Dōgen has taken the graphs soku u 即æ?? (â??haveâ?) as a binomial with a sense, presumably, of something like â??precisely being,â? â??being itself,â? etc.; and treated the negative copula fuze 不æ?¯ (â??itâ??s notâ?) as the adjectival â??not correct,â? â??not appropriate,â? etc.

21.

â??What is thisâ? (ga wa ze nari ä½?はæ?¯ãªã??): Or â??what is right.â? Continuing his play with the interrogative â??what,â? Dōgen here reads the question, â??what is this [name]?â? as a declarative sentence. The translation obscures the pun on the graph, ze æ?¯, rendered here as â??thisâ? (from the Fourth Ancestorâ??s question, â??What is this name?â?) and as â??rightâ? in the preceding remark by Dōgen, â??An ordinary name â??is not rightâ?? for â??being as itself.â??â?

â??He has what-ed thisâ? (ze wo ga shikitareri æ?¯ã?'ä½?ã?きã?ã??ã??): Here, the interrogative â??whatâ? is treated as a transitive verb; presumably the meaning is â??to make â??whatâ?? of â??this,â? â??to take â??thisâ?? as â??what.â??â? Most interpretation takes â??whatâ? to represent the ultimate mystery of things, and â??thisâ? to stand for the immediate presence of things; hence, to â??whatâ? â??thisâ? is to see the mystery in the presence.

â??This is the nameâ? (kore shō nari ã?ã??å§?なã??): The antecedent of â??thisâ? here is unclear; possibly the act of â??what-ingâ? â??this.â?

â??For what makes it what is this; making it this is the function of whatâ? (ga narashimuru wa ze no yue nari ze narashimuru wa ga no nō nari ä½?なã??ã?ã??ã??はæ?¯ã®ã??ã?なã??æ?¯ãªã??ã? ã??ã??はä½?のè?½ãªã??): If we follow the common interpretation, the causatives here would convey the reciprocal relationship between the â??whatâ? of the ultimate mystery and the â??thisâ? of the immediate presence: it is the immediate realm of things that reveals the ultimate; it is the ultimate realm that expresses itself as things.

â??We fix it as artemisia teaâ? (kore o kōtō ni mo tenzu ã?ã??ã?'è'¿æ¹¯ã«ã??é»?ã?): Likely a suffusion of mugwort (or wormwood) taken for medicinal purposes. The antecedent of â??itâ? (kore ã?ã??) is unclear; presumably, his â??name.â?

â??Everyday tea and riceâ? (kajō no sahan 家常のè?¶é£¯): A fairly common expression, in both Chan texts and Dōgenâ??s writings, for the â??daily fareâ? of the home, what we might call â??homestyleâ? cooking; well known in the saying, often cited by Dōgen, of Fuyung Daokai è??è??é?楷 (1043-1118): â??The words of the buddhas and ancestors are like everyday tea and riceâ? (fozu yenju ru jiachang chafan ä½?ç¥?è¨?句å¦?家常è?¶é£¯) (or, in some versions, â??the intentions and words of the buddhas and ancestorsâ? (fozu yiju ä½?ç¥?æ?å¥). See, e.g., Dōgenâ??s shingji Shōbōgenzō, case 143 (DZZ.5:202).

äº?ç¥?ã?はくæ?¯ä½?æ?§ã??ã?はくのå®?æ?¨ã¯ã? æ?¯ã¯ä½?æ?§ãªã??となã??ã??ä½?のã??ã?にä½?だªã??なã??ã??æ?¯ã¯ä½?å§?のみに究å?ã?きã?ã ??ã??ã??ã?æ?¯ã?でに不æ?¯ã®ã¨ãä½?æ?§ãªã?? ã??ã?ã?ã?ã??ばã?なはちã?æ?¯ã¯ä½?なã??ã? ä½?なã??とã?へどã??ã?è?±è½ã?きã?ã??ã?é ?è?±ã?きã?ã??にã?ã?なã??ã?å§?なã??ã??そ のå§?ã?なはちå¨ãªã??ã??ã?ã?ã?ã??どã??ã? ç?¶ã«ã?ãã?ã?ç¥?にã?ãã?ã?æ¯æ°ã«ç?¸ä¼¼ã ªã??ã?ã?å?è§?にé½?è?©ãªã??ã??ã??ã??

The Fifth Ancestor said, â??Itâ??s the buddha nature.â? The essential point of what he says is that â??itâ??sâ? is â??the buddha nature.â? Because of â??what,â? it is the buddha. Has â??itâ??sâ? been exhaustively investigated only in the name â??whatâ?? When â??itâ??sâ? was [said to be] â??itâ??s not,â? it was â??the buddha nature.â? Therefore, while â??itâ??sâ? is â??what,â? is the buddha, when they have been sloughed off, when they have been liberated, it is necessarily his â??name.â? That name is Zhou. Nevertheless, he does not get it from his father; he does not get it from his ancestors; it does not resemble his motherâ??s family name; how could it be of equal stature with onlookers?22

22.

â??Itâ??s is the buddha natureâ? (ze wa busshō nari æ?¯ã¯ä½?æ?§ãªã??): Continuing the play with the graph ze, here translated as â??itâ??sâ? in Hongrenâ??s remark, â??Itâ??s the buddha nature.â?

â??Has itâ??s been exhaustively investigated only in the name what?â? (ze wa nan shō nomi ni kyÅ«shÅ« shikitaranya æ?¯ã¯ä½?å§?のみに究å?ã?きã?ã??ã??ã??): I.e., is the term ze (â??it isâ?) being treated in this conversation only as the name â??whatâ??

When itâ??s was said to be itâ??s not, it was the buddha natureâ? (ze sude ni fuze no toki busshō nari æ?¯ã?でに不æ?¯ã®ã¨ãä½?æ?§ãªã??): I.e., when Hongren said, â??itâ??s not [an ordinary name],â? the negation of â??it isâ? (ze æ?¯), â??itâ??s notâ? (fu ze 不æ?¯), also indicated the buddha nature.

â??When they have been sloughed off, when they have been liberated, it is necessarily his nameâ? (datsuraku shikitari tōdatsu shikitaru ni kanarazu shō nari è?±è½ã?きã?ã??é?è?±ã?きã?ã??にã?なã??だ?å§?なã??): Usually taken to mean that, although â??itâ??sâ? can be identified with â??whatâ? or â??buddha,â? when it is freed from these â??higherâ? abstractions, it is Hongrenâ??s actual name.

â??That name is Zhouâ? (sono shō sunawachi shÅ« nari そのå§?ã?なはちå¨ãªã??): According to his biography (e.g., Jingde chuan deng lu æ?¯å¾³å?³ç??é?², T.51:222c6), Hongrenâ??s family name was Zhou å¨ (a common surname, with the meaning â??all-embracingâ?).

â??How could it be of equal stature with onlookers?â? (bōkan ni seiken naranya å?è§?にé½?è?©ãªã??ã??ã??): I.e., how could the Fifth Ancestorâ??s name be compared with the names of others?

å??ç¥?ã?はく汝ç?¡ä½?æ?§ã??ã?はã??ã??é?å?だ¯ã?æ±ã¯ã?ã??にã?ã??ã?ã?æ±ã«ä¸?ä»»ã?ã??㠁©ã??ã?ç?¡ä½?æ?§ãªã??とé??æ¼?ã?ã??なã??ã??ã? ã??べã?ã?å¸ã?べã?ã?ã?まはã?ã?なã??æ? ?ç¯?にã?てç?¡ä½?æ?§ãªã??ã?ã??ä½?é ã«ã?てç?¡ä½?æ?§ãªã??ã?ã?ä½?åä¸?にã?てç? ¡ä½?æ?§ãªã??ã?ã??ä¸?é??ã?'é?¼å¡?ã?ã??ã?とな㠁?ã??ã?å?«é?ã?'æ¸ç´¢ã?ã??ã?となã?ã??ã??ç?¡ä ½?æ?§ã¯ä¸?æ??のä¸?æ?§ãªã??と修ç¿'ã?ã??ã?と ã??ã?ã??ã??ä½?æ?§æ?ä½?のときã?ç?¡ä½?æ?§ãªã? ?ã?ã?ä½?æ?§ç?¼å¿?のときã?ç?¡ä½?æ?§ãªã??ã?㠁¨å?å?ã?べã?ã?é?å?ã?べã?ã??é?²æ?±ã?'ã? てã??å?å?ã?ã?ã??べã?ã?é?²æ?±ã«ã??å?å?だ?べã?ã?ä½?æ?§ã?'ã?てã??å?å?ã?ã?ã??べã?ã ??

The Fourth Ancestor said, â??You have no buddha nature.â? This saying proclaims, â??Although I allow that â??youâ?? are â??youâ?? and not another, you are â??no buddha nature.â??â? We should know, we should study, at what time now is it that he is â??no buddha natureâ?? Is it at the head of the buddha that he is â??no buddha natureâ?? Is it â??beyond the buddhaâ? that he is â??no buddha natureâ?? Do not block up â??the seven penetrationsâ?; do not grope for â??the eight masteries.â? There are instances when â??no buddha natureâ? is also studied as a momentary samādhi. When the buddha nature becomes a buddha, is this â??no buddha natureâ?? When the buddha nature arouses the aspiration [to become a buddha], is this â??no buddha natureâ?? We should ask this; we should say it. We should make the columns ask it; we should ask the columns. We should make the buddha nature ask it.23

23.

â??Although I allow that you are you and not anotherâ? (nyo wa tare ni arazu nyo ni ichinin suredomo 汝はã?ã??にã?ã??ã?汝にä¸?ä»»ã?ã??どã??): A tentative translation of an odd locution, literally something like, â??you are not someone; although entrusting [this] to you . . . â?); taken here to mean, â??acknowledging your identity as â??you,â??â? The verb ichinin su ä¸?ä»» (translated here â??allowingâ?) occurs often in Dōgenâ??s writings in the sense, common in Chan texts, â??to leave entirely to . . . .â?

â??You are no buddha natureâ? (mu busshō nari ç?¡ä½?æ?§ãªã??): Or â??you lack a buddha nature.â? Here and in the remainder of his discussion of this topic, Dōgen treats the phrase mu busshō ç?¡ä½?æ?§ (â??having no buddha nature,â? â??lacking buddha natureâ?) as a single semantic unit.

â??At what time now is itâ? (ima wa ikanaru jisetsu ni shite ã?まはã?ã?なã??æ??ç¯?にã?て): Perhaps recalling the earlier discussion of the phrase â??if the time arrives.â?

â??The head of the buddhaâ? (buttō ä½?é ): An unusual expression, not occurring elsewhere in Dōgenâ??s writings; possibly a variant of the more common bucchō ä½?é ? (â??buddhaâ??s â??crown,â?? or â??topknotâ??â?; buddhōṣá¹?Ä«á¹£a), often used metaphorically as the very pinnacle of awakening; generally taken here to indicate the attainment of buddhahood.

â??Beyond the buddhaâ? (butsu kōjō ä½?åä¸?): A common expression in Chan texts and Dōgenâ??s writings, as in the sayings â??a person beyond the buddhaâ? (butsu kōjō nin ä½?åä¸?人) or â??what lies beyond the buddhaâ? (butsu kōjō ji ä½?åä¸?äº?).

â??Block up the seven penetrationsâ? (shittsÅ« o hissaku su ä¸?é??ã?'é?¼å¡?ã?); â??grope for the eight masteriesâ? (hattatsu o mosaku su å?«é?ã?'æ¸ç´¢ã?): The â??seven penetrations and eight masteriesâ? (shittsÅ« hattatsu ä¸?é??å?«é?), or â??seven passes and eight arrivals,â? is a common expression in Dōgenâ??s writings and earlier Chan texts for â??thorough understanding,â? or â??complete mastery.â?

â??Studied as a momentary samādhiâ? (ichiji no zanmai nari to shushÅ« su ä¸?æ??のä¸?æ?§ãªã??と修ç¿'ã?): The term samādhi here should probably be understood in its common usage in reference to any spiritual practice or experience, rather than to a psychological state of extreme concentration. Some interpreters take ichiji no zanmai ä¸?æ??のä¸?æ?§ as indicating â??samādhi in each momentâ?; the translation takes it simply as a temporary state, or experience (in contrast to a general conditionâ?) of which the following two questions here would be examples.

â??The buddha nature becomes a buddhaâ? (busshō jōbutsu ä½?æ?§æ?ä½?); â??the buddha nature arouses the aspirationâ? (busshō hosshin ä½?æ?§ç?¼å¿?): I.e. at the end and at the beginning respectively of the bodhisattva path. The questions may presuppose the common notion that the â??buddha natureâ? refers to the potential to undertake and complete quest for buddhahood.

â??We should make the columns ask it; we should ask the columnsâ? (rochÅ« o shitemo monshu seshimubeshi rochÅ« ni mo monshu subeshi é?²æ?±ã?'ã?てã??å?å?ã?ã?ã??べã?é?²æ?±ã«ã? ?å?å?ã?べã?): The term rochÅ« é?²æ?± (â??exposed columnâ?) refers to the free-standing pillars of monastic buildings, appearing often in Chan conversations as symbols of the objective world. Dōgen here reflects a saying attributed to Shitou Xiqian; Allusion to a well-known saying of the famous Tang-dynasty Chan master Shitou Xiqian ç?³é å¸?遷 (700-790), found, e.g., in the Liandeng huiyao 聯ç??æ??要 (ZZ.136:738a3-4) and recorded in Dōgenâ??s shinji Shōbōgenzō (DZZ.5:148, case 41):

ç?³é ç?¡é??大師ã??å?£é'å??諱å¸?遷ã??å? å?§å?ã?å¦?ä½?æ?¯ç¥?師西ä¾?æ?ã??師æ?°ã?å?å ?é?²æ?±ã??å?§æ?°ã?æ?ç?²ä¸æ??ã??師æ?°ã?æ?æ?´ä¸ æ??ä¹?ã??

The Great Master Wuji of Shitou (succeeded Qingyuan, called Xiqian) was once asked by a monk, â??What is the intention of the ancestral masterâ??s coming from the west?â?
The master said, â??Ask the columns.â?
The monk said, â??I donâ??t understand.â?
The master said, â??I donâ??t understand either.â?

ã?ã?ã?ã??ばã?なはちã?ç?¡ä½?æ?§ã®é?ã?ã ¯ã??ã?にå??ç¥?のç¥?室ã??ã??きã?ã??ã??ã??の㠁ªã??ã??é»?æ¢?にè¦?è?ã?ã?è¶?å·?に流é??ã?ã? 大æ½?にæ?§æ?ã?ã??ç?¡ä½?æ?§ã®é?ã?ã?なã??だ?ç²¾é?²ã?べã?ã?è¶è¶?ã?ã??ã?となã?ã??ã??ç? ¡ä½?æ?§ã?どã??ぬべã?とã?へどã??ã?ä½?なã ??æ¨?æº?ã?ã??ã?æ±ãªã??æ??ç¯?ã?ã??ã?æ?¯ãªã?? æ??æ©?ã?ã??ã?å¨ãªã??å?å§?ã?ã??ã?ç?´è¶£ãªã?? ã??

Therefore, the words â??no buddha natureâ? are something heard far beyond the ancestral rooms of the Fourth Ancestor. They are seen in Huangmei; they circulate to Zhaozhou; they are raised by Dayi. The words â??no buddha nature,â? we should pursue with vigour; do not falter or hesitate. Though we may well have lost our bearings in â??no buddha nature,â? we have â??whatâ? as the standard, â??youâ? as the time, â??thisâ? as the accord, Zhou as the same name; and we advance directly.24

24.

â??Ancestral roomsâ? (soshitsu ç¥?室): A common expression in Chan for the â??inner recessesâ? of the tradition handed down from master to disciple.

â??Huangmeiâ? (ōbai é»?æ¢?); â??Zhaozhouâ? (jōshÅ« è¶?å·?); â??Dayiâ? (daii 大æ½?): Reference to famous Chan masters who use the expression â??no buddha nature.â? â??Huangmeiâ? indicates the Fourth Ancestor, Daoxin himself; â??Zhaozhouâ? and â??Dayiâ? refer to Zhaozhou Congshen è¶?å·?å¾?è«? (778-897) and Guishan Lingyou æ½?å±±é?祐 (771-853) respectively, both of whom will be quoted below.

â??Pursue with vigourâ? (shōjin subeshi ç²¾é?²ã?べã?): I.e., make effort to understand. The term shōjin ç²¾é?², commonly used for the virtue of â??zeal,â? or â??exertion,â? does not typically occur as a transitive verb.

â??Though we may well have lost our bearings in no buddha natureâ? (mu busshō tadorinubeshi to iedomo ç?¡ä½?æ?§ã?どã??ぬべã?とã?へどã??): Most readers take the verb tadoru here in the sense tomadoi æ?¸æ? (â??lose oneâ??s way,â? â??grope about,â? etc.).

â??We have what as the standardâ? (ga naru hyōjun ari ä½?なã??æ¨?æº?ã?ã??): The first in a list of four terms in Dōgenâ??s preceding discussion of the dialogue. The term hyōjun æ¨?æº? occurs fairly often in Dōgenâ??s writings in the sense of a â??markerâ? or â??normâ?; akin to hyōkaku æ¨?æ ¼.

â??You as the timeâ? (nyo naru jisetsu 汝なã??æ??ç¯?): It is unclear what â??timeâ? is referred to here: the most likely candidate is the â??timeâ? in the question of the preceding section: â??at what time now is it that he is â??no buddha natureâ???â?

â??This as the accordâ? (ze naru tōki æ?¯ãªã??æ??æ©?): The term ze æ?¯ (â??thisâ?) has also appeared above as â??itâ??sâ? in Hongrenâ??s statement, â??itâ??s the buddha nature.â? The word â??accordâ? here translates tōki æ??æ©?, a term often indicating a perfect â??fit,â? or â??match,â? perhaps especially between master and disciple; here, perhaps the accord between â??whatâ? and â??this.â?

â??Zhou as the same nameâ? (shÅ« naru dōshō å¨ãªã??å?å§?): Some manuscripts give the more familiar expression dōshō å?ç?? (â??the same birth,â? â??born togetherâ?). â??Zhouâ? (â??all-embracingâ?) is Hongrenâ??s family name (see, above, Note 22: â??That name is Zhouâ?). It is not clear who (or what) here shares the name Zhou.

â??We advance directlyâ? (jikishu ç?´è¶£): The implication seems to be that, though â??no buddha natureâ? may be confusing, given the guidance of the terms in the dialogue listed, we can immediately understand it. The expression, â??advance directlyâ? here may reflect the words, quoted elsewhere in Dōgenâ??s writings, â??advance directly to supreme bodhiâ? (jikishu mujō bodai ç?´è¶£ç?¡ä¸?菩提).

[Jundo]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

Hi,

For folks craving a bit more 'Genzo ... Tonight's Zen Talk for our May Monthly 4-Hour "Real Time" Zazenkai ...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2473&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

... will be on a short section of Shobogenzo called "Shoji" (Life and Death). Here is the text in full ...

Birth and Death
by Eihei Dogen
Translated by Arnold Kotler and Kazuaki Tanahashi.


1

"Because a buddha is in birth and death, there is no birth and death." (2)

It is also said, "Because a buddha is not in birth and death, a buddha is not deluded by birth and death." (3)

These statements are the essence of the words of the two Zen masters Jiashan and Dingshan. You should certainly not neglect them, because they are the words of those who attained the way.

2

Those who want to be free from birth and death should understand the meaning of these words. If you search for a buddha outside birth and death, it will be like trying to go to the southern country of Yue with our spear heading towards the north, or like trying to see the Big Dipper while you are facing south; you will cause yourself to remain all the more in birth and death and lose the way of emancipation.

Just understand that birth-and-death is itself nirvana. There is nothing such as birth and death to be avoided; there is nothing such as nirvana to be sought. Only when you realize this are you free from birth and death.

3

It is a mistake to suppose that birth turns into death. Birth is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past and future.

For this reason, in buddha-dharma birth is understood as no-birth.*

Death is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past

and future. For this reason, death is understood as no-death.*

In birth there is nothing but birth and in death there is nothing but death. Accordinly, when birth comes, face and actualize birth, and when death comes, face and actualize death. Do not avoid them or desire them.

Birth and death as the experience of nirvana.

4

This birth and death is the life of buddha. If you try to exclude it you will lose the life of buddha. If you cling to it, trying to remain in it, you will also lose the life of buddha, and what remains will be the mere form of buddha. Only when you don’t dislike birth and death or long for them, do you enter buddha’s mind.

However, do not analyze or speak about it. Just set aside your body and mind, forget about them, and throw them into the house of buddha; then all is done by buddha. When you follow this, you are free from birth and death and become a buddha without effort or calculation. Who then continues to think?

5

There is a simple way to become buddha: When you refrain from unwholesome actions, are not attached to birth and death, and are compassionate toward all sentient beings, respectful to seniors and kind to juniors, not excluding or desiring anything, with no designing thoughts or worries, you will be called a buddha. Do not seek anything else.

[disastermouse]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

There is a simple way to become buddha: When you refrain from unwholesome actions, are not attached to birth and death, and are compassionate toward all sentient beings, respectful to seniors and kind to juniors, not excluding or desiring anything, with no designing thoughts or worries, you will be called a buddha. Do not seek anything else.

*gassho*

Chet

[ezzirah]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

I wanna join in....!!!!


I am a little lost as to where we are and what I will need to read, can anyone bring me up to speed?

Gassho!

[Jundo]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

I wanna join in....!!!!


I am a little lost as to where we are and what I will need to read, can anyone bring me up to speed?

Gassho!

Well, I believe this thread has been the "Shobogenzo Study Group" so far.

[Fuken]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

You probably want to read a good translation of the Lotus Sutra first, to see the "tune" that Dogen was working with. This by Reeves is very readable and a fantastic tale, right up there with "Alice in Wonderland" and such ...

I can't seem to get down with the Lotus sutra like that at all. I read a page, and feel the need for a nap. Of course I have not made it far at all but can anyone offer some encouraging words on getting through it?

Yours in practice,
Jordan

[Fuken]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

You probably want to read a good translation of the Lotus Sutra first, to see the "tune" that Dogen was working with. This by Reeves is very readable and a fantastic tale, right up there with "Alice in Wonderland" and such ...

I can't seem to get down with the Lotus sutra like that at all. I read a page, and feel the need for a nap. Of course I have not made it far at all but can anyone offer some encouraging words on getting through it?

Yours in practice,
Jordan

[Jundo]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

You probably want to read a good translation of the Lotus Sutra first, to see the "tune" that Dogen was working with. This by Reeves is very readable and a fantastic tale, right up there with "Alice in Wonderland" and such ...

I can't seem to get down with the Lotus sutra like that at all. I read a page, and feel the need for a nap. Of course I have not made it far at all but can anyone offer some encouraging words on getting through it?

Yours in practice,
Jordan

Hey Jordan,

You just had some postings on your blog about how you read and liked the Surangama Sutra. Why that one, but not the lotus?

[anista]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

I can't seem to get down with the Lotus sutra like that at all. I read a page, and feel the need for a nap. Of course I have not made it far at all but can anyone offer some encouraging words on getting through it?

Yours in practice,
Jordan

Well, I don't have any suggestions on how to best read the Lotus, but have you tried Avata?saka? That is one boring piece of s?tra right there. Tremendously interesting, a very good read (if you get through the first couple of chapters), but for the most part mind-numbingly boring. After that one, every other s?tra is a walk in the park.

That's my general advice .

[disastermouse]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

I can't seem to get down with the Lotus sutra like that at all. I read a page, and feel the need for a nap. Of course I have not made it far at all but can anyone offer some encouraging words on getting through it?

Yours in practice,
Jordan

Well, I don't have any suggestions on how to best read the Lotus, but have you tried Avata?saka? That is one boring piece of s?tra right there. Tremendously interesting, a very good read (if you get through the first couple of chapters), but for the most part mind-numbingly boring. After that one, every other s?tra is a walk in the park.

That's my general advice .

Start with the hardest and the rest seems like cake? Heh. I always eat the twinkies before the vegetables. :twisted:

Chet

[Fuken]

Re: Shobogenzo Study Group?

I haven't tried the Avata?saka Sutra yet, but it is on my list. The lotus has started opening up for me now after reading chapter three, it was familiar to me as I had heard that part of the sutra in a Dharma talk some time ago.

Thanks!

Jordan