First sittings (experience advice)

[BaltimoreBuddhist]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

Hi Hank,
Do you mind if I say hi? I think it is a good habit. Your questions are not infantile. If the tone I used at the end of the post was a bit strong, it had a purpose: to bring your attention to the fact that , maybe, you may listen in a different way. AlthoughI did not want to talk down to you, my clumsy words irritated you.
I apologize.

That's okay, my clumsy words are what started the downhill snowball. I sort of feel like you are in the position of trying to tell a dog how to see a rainbow. Actually, it's literally like trying to tell someone how to see one of those magic eye 3D pictures. Once you get it, it's pretty common sense, but before that point it's hard to find a point of reference to adequately describe how deceptively simple and at the same time complex the whole process is. I'm having more success picking this up than those magic eye pictures btw. I still to this day have never been able to see the hidden 3D image .

[Taigu]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

Hi?Hank,

I sort of feel like you are in the position of trying to tell a dog how to see a rainbow.

Or, to tell the rainbow he can drop the illusion of being a dog right on the spot...

Glad you are enjoying sitting as it is.

take care

gassho

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

Hi Hank,
Do you mind if I say hi? I think it is a good habit. Your questions are not infantile. If the tone I used at the end of the post was a bit strong, it had a purpose: to bring your attention to the fact that , maybe, you may listen in a different way. AlthoughI did not want to talk down to you, my clumsy words irritated you.
I apologize.

That's okay, my clumsy words are what started the downhill snowball. I sort of feel like you are in the position of trying to tell a dog how to see a rainbow. Actually, it's literally like trying to tell someone how to see one of those magic eye 3D pictures. Once you get it, it's pretty common sense, but before that point it's hard to find a point of reference to adequately describe how deceptively simple and at the same time complex the whole process is. I'm having more success picking this up than those magic eye pictures btw. I still to this day have never been able to see the hidden 3D image .

The Magic Eye thing seems like an apt metaphor. I've actually used that before when trying to explain what awakening (for lack of a better word - it's not the best word) is. There's one difference, though - the real trick seems to be seeing through egoic identification, but it's not. The real 'trick' is egoic identification itself. It's not that there's anything particularly wrong with it, but we've gotten trapped in a very specific, very peculiar way of seeing things. It's not that particular way of seeing things that causes suffering necessarily, IMHO, it's the being trapped in it part that seems to mess us up.

YMMV

Chet

[Craig]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

i'm a lurker and sometimes poster. i've been sitting pretty regularly and wanted to jump in on this discussion. i've been dicking around practicing for about 2 years and for some reason, the last two weeks i've had some tenacity to really work at it. i finally did 20 minutes for the last 2 days, but yesterday i couldn't take it past 15. i was f'n miserable. i start out good with appropriate posture. however, as the session goes on i tend to fall back. i compensate by moving forward, but this is usually too much. meanwhile, my brain goes nutz. i just want to scream. i get nauseated and it gets to be impossible to come back to the breath.

so, any thoughts? tonight i'm gonna go back to 10 minutes and try to work up to 20 adding a minute per week. i'm also gonna check out those beginner talks linked above.

[Craig]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

Hey Hank,

When you sit and your mind is a clusterfuck - it doesn't mean you're 'doing it wrong'. Everyone's mind is a clusterfuck. Trying to stop it is futile. Concentration techniques like breath-counting are a bit like 'breaking a horse'. It is control, mental enforcement, etc. I think that some Soto places start with it because SOME mental control seems desirable to them, but I think you'll find that the wild horse of your mind and you will become better friends if you give it a wide space and watch (the watcher goes away too - part of the dream - but for now...). You simply let the mind settle, you don't make it settle. That's because the desire to control is actually a kick from the wild horse, LOL!

A lot of teachers start with teaching breath-counting. I think Taigu and Jundo are trying to break a bad habit before it can start - like yanking a cigarette out of your mouth. Taigu may seem rough and dogmatic, but he's actually a lot cuddlier than I am. Basically though, he's saying, 'Do you want to learn or do you want to do it your way?'

He's probably pissed you off a little, which is a good sign he's doing his job, LOL!

Chet

disaster,
this is the best explanation of shikantaza i have ever read. thank you so much. i've never thought of the counting etc. as attempts of control. i too want some sort of 'technique'. i say to myself, 'if i don't count the breath or rest in the breath then what the fuck do i do!!' but therein lies more attempts at control of a futile situation. alas, just sit?

[Jundo]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

I actually found an interesting link a week or so ago ... http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/boo...ditation_guide. ... The Zen Mountain Monastery link on another thread illustrated what the recommended breathing in zazen should be like.

I will just drop this in ...

The teacher from a Vietnamese tradition who wrote the first link, and the instructions in the second from the Zen Mountain Monastery (a lineage which is a mixture of Rinzai and Soto practices, but with a heavy tilt toward the former) ... and many other links on the internet and teachers talking about Zazen and countless other forms of meditation ... will tend to prescribe rather different things. (The Vietnamese teacher was actually very fair in spelling out several different ways of Zazen)

Almost all forms of meditation, if you look closely, are based on attaining some state of mind and experience by some form of "one pointed concentration" on a Koan, Mantra, image of Buddha or the like. Most talk of reaching some goal where life will suddenly seem very different, or unusual states of mind.

Many ways up and down the mountain to get where we are going.

Our Shikantaza way is thus rather unusual in being a total dropping of all need and lack, thought of places we must get to ... and, thus, attaining the Promised Land by being free of all need for attainments, finding all wholly here all along ... (Well, you have heard me go on about this on many other threads, so I will not do so again ) ....

The point is just to realize that, as in choosing a cookbook, there are many styles and cooks recommending different ways to cook soup. Some are tasty, some are not ... and you have to find the tasty ones, right by you, on your own tongue. Just be careful about mixing and matching (so, Chocolate cake is good, onion soup is good ... but not necessarily chocolate cake in the onion soup. :? ).

The path described here is a very special one ... of sincerely and diligently walking forward, while ever always arriving. Dropping all thought of "something missing" and "in need for change" will, surprisingly, "fill in the missing pieces" and work a revolutionary change on "you" and the experience of life very much.

Accordingly, this Practice will change you. Dropping all thought of a goal, all mental separation and resistance, leads to the reaching of the goal of a life suddenly very different, and this most ordinary, sometimes up sometimes down, life and mind seen as the Miracle they are.

Gassho, J

[will]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

which is a word that is often loosely translated as : just sitting"

Also the word "Zen" came from a word used to describe Bodhidharma's practice. Chan means "meditation". Originally the term was "Chan Zuo". "Zuo" means "sit" in Chinese. So loosely translated, this means "Meditation sitting" or "Sitting meditation".( Not concentration etc., just "sitting meditation"). Later it was shortened to just "Chan", and when it went overseas to Japan, that word got translated to "Zen".

Gassho

[Craig]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

I actually found an interesting link a week or so ago ... http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/boo...ditation_guide. ... The Zen Mountain Monastery link on another thread illustrated what the recommended breathing in zazen should be like.

I will just drop this in ...

The teacher from a Vietnamese tradition who wrote the first link, and the instructions in the second from the Zen Mountain Monastery (a lineage which is a mixture of Rinzai and Soto practices, but with a heavy tilt toward the former) ... and many other links on the internet and teachers talking about Zazen and countless other forms of meditation ... will tend to prescribe rather different things. (The Vietnamese teacher was actually very fair in spelling out several different ways of Zazen)

Almost all forms of meditation, if you look closely, are based on attaining some state of mind and experience by some form of "one pointed concentration" on a Koan, Mantra, image of Buddha or the like. Most talk of reaching some goal where life will suddenly seem very different, or unusual states of mind.

Many ways up and down the mountain to get where we are going.

it can be very frustrating finding a method and a teacher with so many choices. this is especially true for critically thinking seekers who are not looking for answers per se, but something that makes sense. it's good to know there are many methods, but i wish teachers were clearer about their specific method being one among many. daido lori is a prime example requiring breath work, koans, and art. he talks as if these methods are the only method. obviously not true. i have an affinity for shikantaza i'm finding. thanks jundo for these explanations and taking responsibility for the method you teach.

Our Shikantaza way is thus rather unusual in being a total dropping of all need and lack, thought of places we must get to ... and, thus, attaining the Promised Land by being free of all need for attainments, finding all wholly here all along ... (Well, you have heard me go on about this on many other threads, so I will not do so again ) ....

The point is just to realize that, as in choosing a cookbook, there are many styles and cooks recommending different ways to cook soup. Some are tasty, some are not ... and you have to find the tasty ones, right by you, on your own tongue. Just be careful about mixing and matching (so, Chocolate cake is good, onion soup is good ... but not necessarily chocolate cake in the onion soup. :? ).

The path described here is a very special one ... of sincerely and diligently walking forward, while ever always arriving. Dropping all thought of "something missing" and "in need for change" will, surprisingly, "fill in the missing pieces" and work a revolutionary change on "you" and the experience of life very much.

Accordingly, this Practice will change you. Dropping all thought of a goal, all mental separation and resistance, leads to the reaching of the goal of a life suddenly very different, and this most ordinary, sometimes up sometimes down, life and mind seen as the Miracle they are.

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

Dropping all thought of "something missing" and "in need for change" will, surprisingly, "fill in the missing pieces" and work a revolutionary change on "you" and the experience of life very much.

Gassho, J

"What, at this very moment, is missing?" - Lin Chi

My favorite koan.

Chet

[mark]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

Hi, thanks to Hank for the discussion and many thanks to all for the excellent answers. I am listening, learning, and (yup) lurking.

I find Shikantaza the most difficult, amorphous, irritating, and scary type of meditation I have tried. This, for me, confirms the valueless value of it. My self rebells when I walk off of the cliff and trust the abyss... But - it - is - right.

m

[Dosho]

Re: First sittings (experience advice)

Hey Hank,

Good to have you here and I recognize much of what you wrote from my initial posts at Treeleaf.

I really have nothing to add...and it took me quite awhile to learn that.

I still to this day have never been able to see the hidden 3D image .

Same here.

Gassho,
Dosho