One-pointedness.

[Janne H]

Hi,

Maybe this is a stupid question,

but is one-pointedness the same as enlightment?

Or is it a part of it?

Or only the path to realizing enlightment?

And with one-pointedness I mean the way it is descibed in The Three Pillars Of Zen, chapter I/The three aims of zazen: "Joriki, the first of these, is the power or strength with arises when the mind has been unified and brought to one-pointedness in zazen concentration."

If you already have discussed this in some way, maybe you could redirect me to that thread.

[disastermouse]

Re: One-pointedness.

Hi,

Maybe this is a stupid question,

but is one-pointedness the same as enlightment?

Or is it a part of it?

Or only the path to realizing enlightment?

And with one-pointedness I mean the way it is descibed in The Three Pillars Of Zen, chapter I/The three aims of zazen: "Joriki, the first of these, is the power or strength with arises when the mind has been unified and brought to one-pointedness in zazen concentration."

If you already have discussed this in some way, maybe you could redirect me to that thread.

One-pointedness is an aspect of concentration.

Enlightenment is the path to realizing enlightenment. You realize, don't you - that the more you fill yourself up with these ideas, the harder it will be to let them go? Better to approach with as little encumbrance as possible.

Shikantaza is a sort of diffuse awareness, not a concentration on one particular thing. It's an unhooking. Nothing will 'make you enlightened' - instead of inquiring into the enlightened state, you might better inquire into this state right now. What other state is there?

Dogen's 'Backward Step' is a good place to start. Shikantaza is a backward step out of identification with (or concentration on) any particular thing. It's mostly a matter of letting be. Reading the Diamond Sutra or Nagarjuna (with commentary) can be a helpful intellectual practice if you feel the need to intellectualize - as they give you so little onto which to hold.

Chet

[Janne H]

Re: One-pointedness.

Enlightenment is the path to realizing enlightenment. You realize, don't you - that the more you fill yourself up with these ideas, the harder it will be to let them go? Better to approach with as little encumbrance as possible.

Yes, I think I realize that.

Shikantaza is a sort of diffuse awareness, not a concentration on one particular thing. It's an unhooking. Nothing will 'make you enlightened' - instead of inquiring into the enlightened state, you might better inquire into this state right now. What other state is there?

Dogen's 'Backward Step' is a good place to start. Shikantaza is a backward step out of identification with (or concentration on) any particular thing. It's mostly a matter of letting be. Reading the Diamond Sutra or Nagarjuna (with commentary) can be a helpful intellectual practice if you feel the need to intellectualize - as they give you so little onto which to hold.

I´ve read some of the Diamond sutra before, do you have a translation to recommend?

EDIT:

Sometimes I get stuck on ideas. And like you said it should propably be more like an unhooking or a backward step.

[Taigu]

Re: One-pointedness.

Hi guys,

Yes, I think I realize that

You think?... :lol: Your statement, even if it can be seen as a simple an innocent English sentence that just means: I understand, is interesting because it makes very clear how much, in your own perception, thinking has to do with realization.

Chet 's advice is very precious. Unhooking is good. Undoing is better, in my limited opinion. Whatever works for your mind eager to fathom and find concepts, Jannne H.

Joriki is not particularly cultivated as such in our gentle Soto way, it is very much part and parcel of the Rinzai taste. Kapleau's book is great but can be quite misleading if you have just sat for a few years. Unless you go down, or up that route, that is.

Kodo Sawaki's "Zazen is good for nothing" is most precious, the basic reminder is that this path makes you loose. This loosing, unhooking, undoing, is the living action of Buddha, which people call in an absurd way enlightenment. As Chet says, you better let go of this expectation unless you want to spend twenty years or so on the cushion chasing your own a...! Read and practice Genjokoan. It is the most important chapter of Shobogenzo. And come back to Bendowa and Fukanzazengi.

You could also give that vid a try in which I answered your question already:
http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsuten#p/u/13/5jyjiFfupGw

gassho, which is by the way a very good practice for everybody, putting our head down and allowing our life to be lighter

Taigu

[Janne H]

Re: One-pointedness.

You think?... :lol: Your statement, even if it can be seen as a simple an innocent English sentence that just means: I understand, is interesting because it makes very clear how much, in your own perception, thinking has to do with realization.

I was sure somebody would pick on that sentence, and yes I meant simply that I got the point.

Sometimes I get stuck to thinking this or that, or an idea of how to drop ideas.

Thanks for your advice and for your vid.

[Taigu]

Re: One-pointedness.

gassho



...





Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: One-pointedness.

You think?... :lol: Your statement, even if it can be seen as a simple an innocent English sentence that just means: I understand, is interesting because it makes very clear how much, in your own perception, thinking has to do with realization.

I was sure somebody would pick on that sentence, and yes I meant simply that I got the point.

Sometimes I get stuck to thinking this or that, or an idea of how to drop ideas.

Thanks for your advice and for your vid.

Yeah, it was sort of a cheap Zen trick, I think - unless it worked - in which case it was a cheap Zen trick that worked. Expedient means and all that.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: One-pointedness.

Hi,

I will just direct you to this post from awhile back, which is for new readers of "Zen books" who may not yet realize that different teachers and corners of this Zen world come in various flavors ... Zen books are the same, but different ... very different, even though the same.

viewtopic.php?p=24370#p24370

You may want to read the entire thread ...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1704

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1729

"The Three Pillars Of Zen" is discussed there. It is not meant so much as a criticism (various paths, many ways up the mountain ... and, anyway, 'what mountain'? :shock: ), but the reader of such books should know where the particular writer is "coming from and going to" in his "no coming, no going".

Oh, and I would describe the flavor of "Shikantaza" which is taught here as "open, spacious awareness concentration, focused on everything and nothing in particular" instead of a "one point concentration" which some attempt to build through focus on a Koan, Mantra, and sometimes the breath or the like. In each case, there is "concentration" that is at the core, but of very different focus. Our way might be called "boundless abiding with equanimity" more than a hard "one pointed" concentration in which, for example, the mind is concentrated like a laser beam on a particular target.

Gassho, J

[Taigu]

Re: One-pointedness.

Good old Chet...

Cheap ? Does not belong to my vocabulary.

Cheap... a byproduct of I-know-what-I-am-talking-about -mind.


Who is cheap?


gassho


Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: One-pointedness.

Good old Chet...

Cheap ? Does not belong to my vocabulary.

Cheap... a byproduct of I-know-what-I-am-talking-about -mind.


Who is cheap?


gassho


Taigu

Nah, it's just a cheap shot to finger someone for saying 'I' in a conventional way as to state that it's indicative of a belief in a 'permanent I'. Peeps used to use it on me all the time when I was trying to talk about 'non-self'.

Not really faulting you for it - because it seemed to have worked! Also, I didn't say 'you' were cheap, I said the trick was cheap.

Uh oh, are you identifying with the thought? Did I offend ya? Wow, where did THAT guy come from?

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: One-pointedness.

No, Chet, you don't offend anybody ( i have bigger reasons to be offended working with very difficult teens all day).

Just that... cheap doesn't work.


Anyway, thank you.


take care


gassho


Taigu

[scott]

Re: One-pointedness.

Nah, it's just a cheap shot to finger someone for saying 'I' in a conventional way as to state that it's indicative of a belief in a 'permanent I'.

I think so too.

[Taigu]

Re: One-pointedness.

gassho


Taigu

[Janne H]

Re: One-pointedness.

Jundo,

Thanks for directing me to the threads, really great reading (!) (both chapters and threads), brought some clarity in several things.

And I must say that I kinda feel at home with the Soto tradition, or at the doorstep where I am standing now.

So, as a newbie to Soto, maybe you or someone could recommend where to continue my reading?

[disastermouse]

Re: One-pointedness.

Jundo,

Thanks for directing me to the threads, really great reading (!) (both chapters and threads), brought some clarity in several things.

And I must say that I kinda feel at home with the Soto tradition, or at the doorstep where I am standing now.

So, as a newbie to Soto, maybe you or someone could recommend where to continue my reading?

I'm digging 'The Method of No-Method' by Shen Yeng. It's Chan, not Soto - but I think it's illuminating.

Chet