caffeine and zazen.........again

[roky]

my sitting for the past 2 months has been very scattered, mind wandering, etc. -- i was wondering what kind of change i was going through -- then today, finally, i noticed how clear, aware, present i was during my sit -- then i remembered that following a rare ingesting of a margarita last nite, i indulged in a green tea this morning, just prior to the sit -- i had quit caffeine 2 months ago, due to some medical stuff i was in -- it bothers me that 30 mg of caffeine would have such an effect on me -- after two months of observing my scattered mind, all it takes is a cup of tea to feel clear? -- has anyone else noticed this in their practice? -- does anyone out there sit under the influence of this stimulant? -- is anyone else addicted to it?

gassho, roky

[Jundo]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

my sitting for the past 2 months has been very scattered, mind wandering, etc. -- i was wondering what kind of change i was going through -- then today, finally, i noticed how clear, aware, present i was during my sit -- then i remembered that following a rare ingesting of a margarita last nite, i indulged in a green tea this morning, just prior to the sit -- i had quit caffeine 2 months ago, due to some medical stuff i was in -- it bothers me that 30 mg of caffeine would have such an effect on me -- after two months of observing my scattered mind, all it takes is a cup of tea to feel clear? -- has anyone else noticed this in their practice? -- does anyone out there sit under the influence of this stimulant? -- is anyone else addicted to it?

gassho, roky

Hi Roky,

Even Buddhist monks drink tea and coffee (in fact, they are said to have brought tea to Japan, and developed the tea ceremony). During any Sesshin I have sat at temples in Japan, the tea has been available any time. It is considered a mild, harmless wake up ...

But ... all things in moderation!!

We recently had a thread about what can happen when one overdoes, goes to excess!

viewtopic.php?p=31976#p31976

Gassho (with my morning coffee), Jundo

[mark]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

Hi!

I am more or less incapable of sitting (or doing anything really) in the morning without a cup o caffeine. I go to the kitchen in a zombie state - make coffee, drink it while listening to Jundo or Taigu (or perhaps read a little Suzuki), then sit. I have been curious as to what others do... Coffee, tea, work-out, shower, or (gasp!) straight to the zafu on rising?

m

[Hans]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

Hello Mark,

I usually rise, go to the toilet and then grab my zafu...mostly not while being on the toilet

Gassho,

Hans

[Rich]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

I don't mind being stimulated by a cup of coffee first thing in the morning. I then read, stretch and sit. I probably drink more coffee in the winter to keep warm. I don't like iced coffee anytime. Moderation is the key, I know when I've had too much caffeine, but this too passes.

[Shohei]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

Hiyas
I sit afternoons and night time due to life, and all are usually after tea @ lunch and coffee in the evening. Mornings i do manage to get outta bed before the kids or before its time for work I sit caffine free, like Hans said, Toilet>Zafu>sit. Lately, with my wife off maternity leave and back to her evening shifts at work, im up until 1am (only chance to see here in through the week) and the alarm goes off at 5am - so Alertness and time are very fleeting around the house so caffeine free=asleep on the cushion.

With caffine or with out zazen is zazen...
*THUD* zzZZzzzZZZZzzz

Gassho
Shohei

[monkton]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

Hi Mark,

I very rarely drink caffeine any more, so on the odd occasion when I mistake a cup for the decaff version the effect is REALLY strong :shock: . It makes me feel terrible, nothing specific, just an indistinct background dreadfulness that creeps up on me. At some point I ask myself "Why am I feeling so lousy?", then realise it was the coffee and I find it's actually good to do a bit if insta-zazen© then as experiencing the lousy feeling underlines the metta text about being "well and at ease in my ills/being at peace and embracing all conditions of life". The practice doesn't change anything but helps to get into the habit of sitting no matter what stuff is going on in life instead of thinking, "I feel lousy, something must be wrong, I'll skip sitting today".

"I believe that water is the only drink for a wise man; wine is not so noble a liquor; and think of dashing the hopes of a morning with a cup of warm coffee, or of an evening with a dish of tea! Ah, how low I fall when I am tempted by them!"
- Thoreau
(ploughing a lonely furrow here, I feel...)

gassho
Michael

[roky]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

i wish i could just do it in moderation, but i can't, so i'll attempt to stay off it -- what i was really wondering, though, my addiction aside, is whether anyone else has noticed a difference in their zazen depending on whether or not they're on caffeine -- that's assuming you're not on or off it continuously -- for me, whenever i'm on a substance, i notice it(otherwise i want my money back :lol: ), and zazen being the microscope it is, i can really see the effect on my mind while sitting -- as in:"ahhh, this is mind without caffeine -- this is mind with caffeine" -- and the difference is quite predictable

in fact if you want to throw in any other chemical effects, i'm interested -- for instance, i once did an all day sit on lsd -- wow, talk about focused :!: -- probably the best trip i ever had, just me, the acid, the sand dunes, the ravens, and the breathe

gassho, roky

[Hogo]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

i wish i could just do it in moderation, but i can't, so i'll attempt to stay off it -- what i was really wondering, though, my addiction aside, is whether anyone else has noticed a difference in their zazen depending on whether or not they're on caffeine -- that's assuming you're not on or off it continuously -- for me, whenever i'm on a substance, i notice it(otherwise i want my money back :lol: ), and zazen being the microscope it is, i can really see the effect on my mind while sitting -- as in:"ahhh, this is mind without caffeine -- this is mind with caffeine" -- and the difference is quite predictable

in fact if you want to throw in any other chemical effects, i'm interested -- for instance, i once did an all day sit on lsd -- wow, talk about focused :!: -- probably the best trip i ever had, just me, the acid, the sand dunes, the ravens, and the breathe

gassho, roky

Toilet, coffee watch birds at feeder, coffee, check treeleaf forums and sunspace sit along page (as I sit here now) with a coffee, Sit, coffee .....how many cups is that? off to work or chores, playing or whatever the day holds.

As you can see from my pattern I may have a coffee moderation issue in the morning. I have been wondering the same thing lately about sitting while "ON" coffee. I have seen many references to avoiding substance that alters the mind, alcolhol, drugs seem obvious. Not sure how I feel about Coffee, I will give it a shot and get back to you in a few (I'll start tommorow Already on my second cup today) I quit smoking a year ago so this should be easy :roll: *gulp*
gassho ~ Dave C.

[Dosho]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

Hey Roky,

I can't really help you with this one since I don't drink coffee and have cut back my relatively low soda consumption. I actually find that neither caffiene or alcohol have much effect on me, so I have never really been attracted to using either one. It is actually a bit ironic that I often feel like I'm not part of the group when I don't partake in either "vice" and such a phenomenon is why my father in law took up smoking many years after quitting. For me though that never seemed like the thing to do so I don't touch any of it.

I know that isn't helpful at all, but I did want to let you know I was reading. Maybe I'll have more to say on your next question! Good to see you back in our virtual halls.

Gassho,
Dosho

[roky]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

howdy dosho, thanks for the kind words -- andrew weil, before becoming the health guru, wrote a book, the natural mind, in which he proposed that all drugs were active placebos, that it was the mind that produces all the effects -- not surprising, since, in one way, it all takes place in the "mind" -- so i suppose you've already got what you need w/o any additives

dave, from what i here, if you can give up smoking, you can give up anything

michael, thanks for that thoreau quote -- now i feel i'm at least in good company in my aversion to daily doses of anything

well, 10:27 mst, good time to sit, w/o caffeine -- i'll probably be composing my next post in my head, which is why i frequently do a posting fast

gassho, roky

[KellyRok]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

Hello all,

Hi Roky,

I'm very sensitive to caffeine! I drink one cup of tea in the morning (usually Chai - my favorite) to get started. I usually don't sit until late morning around 10:30/11. One cup of tea doesn't seem to adversly affect my sit - I can usually calm down fairly quick. I also have a cup of green tea in the afternoon, usually after lunch. However, any more than a cup of tea at a time, and I get 'wired'. I definitely cannot drink more than one cup of coffee in the morning, which I try to avoid completely if I'm going to sit. Coffee does affect my sit greatly, I get nervous, agitated, having a mind that just won't settle and that is lead to irrational thoughts. It also raises my heartrate and blood pressure too much. I just don't like that 'edgy' feeling. If I drink coffee, it has to be decaf.

I'm also one of those weird people who cannot take sinus, allergy, or cold meds unless they are for children or at least a children's dose. Some meds keep me up all night, while others make me feel like I'm about to hallucinate or something. I don't like the heart racing and 'crazy' feeling I get from these things. So I avoid them if I can. Benedryl is the only med I've found that doesn't keep me wide awake.

Everyone reacts differently to these sort of things, I guess it's important to know what you can handle and what keeps you 'clear' while sitting.

Gassho to all,
Kelly-Jinmei

[roky]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

kelly -- i know the wired feeling, and usually avoid it -- but what makes me discontinue all daily caffeine is the more subtle effect: my mood changes -- i can be depressed, have 30mg of caffeine from a cup of green tea, and depression is gone -- i can struggle with my concentration for hours, 1 cup, and all solutions are clear(i have to work fast before its out of my blood stream)

thats the part i don't care for -- for some reason i intuitively trust my "natural" state as complete, needing no additives -- i mean, why should it be necessary to change this consciousness? -- it is lacking something??? -- how can it be, when its all there is?

anyway, thats what goes thru my mind -- and this only relates to the idea of a maintenance dose -- not occasional usage -- though most addicts i've known always initially believe they've got it under control -- thats what denial is all about, and denial is addictive in itself, even without chemicals -- they just make it sweeter -- until it bites back

gassho, roky

[Rich]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

Hi Roky, If caffeine is a problem for you then not using it would be a good choice. It is a stimulant and everyone has a different tolerance level. If I feel overstimulated I find that deep breathing and/or light exercise (like walking or calisthetics) calms me down. As far as sitting, it probably does take me longer to settle down but who's counting? I might have a mild 'addiction' but I'm comfortable with that because I enjoy it. I like green, mint and fruit teas also.
/Rich

[mark]

Re: caffeine and zazen.........again

Hi all,

And thanks Roky, for starting this thread.

Well, I suppose I am a coffee addict. I will try to sit occasionally before my cup as an experiment, but (like this morning) I likely won't remember that intent until I am half-way through my cup... It is interesting to consider the thought of caffeine as a liability; for me it is a true pleasure and an opportunity to be in the moment. (Confession: I am a coffee geek - I roast my own green beans, and have alot of fun coffee paraphernalia)- this is the definition of attachment I suppose.

Sitting without caffeine - I have done so in the deep dark past - is much more of a challenge. Perhaps that challenge is a good thing occasionally...

m