Box or Lid or Both?

[AlanLa]

I'm tired of teasing this out in my brain, so I decided to throw it out to the forum.

When you perceive a hole in your life there seems to come with it a need to fill that hole. This need leads to attachment behaviors, addiction being the most extreme example, but there are many other lesser examples you can fill in for yourself depending upon whatever holes you perceive in your life. Pondering this I came up with the analogy of box and lid, with box representing the hole in your life and lid representing the need to fill (or at least cap) that hole. But then I thought, wait a minute:
If you have a box, does it need a lid?

Of course, acceptance is the key. But do you accept the box, the lid, or both?

[scott]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

The way I see it, accept the box, and then whether you feel like putting a lid on it or not, either way, accept that feeling (with awareness).

[Rich]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

I'm not going to bite on that hook. The hole is a feeling, just let it go.

[scott]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

I'm not going to bite on that hook. The hole is a feeling, just let it go.

And when it chooses not to leave?

[AlanLa]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

I'm not going to bite on that hook. The hole is a feeling, just let it go.

But isn't the need (box lid) also a feeling? These things tend to come together, a boxed set, you might say.

Also, just to torture my analogy a bit more, sometimes the lid doesn't fit the box very well, thus resulting in suffering.

[Rich]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

I'm not going to bite on that hook. The hole is a feeling, just let it go.

And when it chooses not to leave?

OK, I'll bite on that since action is necessary.

[Jundo]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

Hi,

Through our Zazen Practice, we taste that Wholly Complete, Completely Whole, such that there is not even need for words expressing "complete" and "whole" (because absolutely nothing has been left out or is missing from the world from the start, save for the mind judging "something is lacking". Only the mind needs something "complete" in contrast to the self's judgment and idea of an "incomplete"). Today, I came across a quote from Master Dogen (Eihei Koroku 1.9) that seems to point to two ways that our Practice allows us this wholeness ... by letting us empty out, and by filling in all the gaps between our self and the world ...

One phrase [that expresses the essence] causes a block of ice to melt and the tiles to crumble, and another phrase fills in the cracks and crevices. Within this one phrase, all the buddhas of the three times ... accomplish the way and turn the Dharma wheel. Therefore [as said by Layman Pang], "The bright clarity of the ancestral teacher's mind is the bright clarity of the hundred grasstips

Each of the phenomena of this life-world (the hundred grasstips) is complete, bright and whole when experienced as such.

Yet, as human beings, we will always live as little selves ... with needs, fears, a sometimes sense of incompleteness. As Scott noted, even when we have an unshakable feeling of lack as humans sometimes will, "accept that feeling (with awareness)".Another quote from Dogen I happened to come across, written after his "exhile" at Eiheiji, in the cold mountains, expresses this ... Even amid the joy and equanimity, there is some sadness ...

Joyful in this mountain retreat yet still feeling melancholy,
Studying the Lotus Sutra every day,
Practicing zazen singlemindedly;
What do love and hate matter
When I'm here alone,
Listening to the sound of the rain late in this autumn evening.

Such is what it means to be a True Human Being, not a stone. You see, we do not live merely in the absolute of nirvana, but also in the relative of this samsara. Too much of the latter, and we live in greed, anger, delusion. Too much of the former, and we cannot live as men. Combine each skillfully (for they are not two), and thus is life truly Whole, Complete ... even amid its imperfections and difficulties.

The famous chant, The Identity of Relative and Absolute (by the 8th Ancestor, Sekito Kisen) puts it thus ...

The subtle source is clear and bright;
the tributary streams flow through the darkness.
To be attached to things is illusion;
to encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.
...
Light is also darkness,
But do not move with it as darkness.
Darkness is light: Do not see it as light.
Light and darkness are not one, not two,
Like the foot before and the foot behind in walking.
Each thing has its own being,
Which is not different from its place and function.
The relative fits the absolute as a box and its lid.

Gassho, J

[KellyRok]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

Hello Al and all,

I've had a hole or a box if you will. Sometimes it is left without a lid. Sometimes I find a lid that just doesn't fit properly. Sometimes I find a lid that will fit for a while, then I realize that a different one is needed. I think a box without a lid is okay. But if you find a lid that fits, by all means use it until it no longer fits. But don't dwell in the box. Don't dwell on finding a lid with a perfect fit.

Sometimes a box has more than one lid that will fit. Sometimes a box is just a box and is just okay being what it is.

I'm really no help at all, am I?

Gassho,
Kelly (Jinmei)

[AlanLa]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

Kelly, you are a great help. That was a fine mastication of my box/lid analogy.

I agree with everything Jundo says. I believe all of that to be true, but getting to the root of that truth is what I am exploring here. How do we get to feel so complete when we have mixed up boxes and lids, holes and needs? "I think I need love, so I go get sex" is sort of an example where the box is lack (empty) of love and the mismatched lid is need for sex. Part of the answer is zazen, where we drop boxes and lids, holes and needs. But how does this help off the cushion? Because, like Scott said above, what if that feeling comes back? You can keep dropping it and dropping it and dropping it, and so on, but dropping the need for love is pretty hard, whereas getting sex might be a lot easier. Do you see where I am going on this?

What do people recognize most in their lives, the hole or the need to fill that hole? I think we usually get stuck on the need, the box lid. But what is a box without a lid? It is an empty hole, thus not the good kind of emptiness. So the root issue is not the need, the box lid, because what good is a box lid without a box? Not much. At some point I think it becomes essential to recognize the box, to look at that hole in your life fully and completely, so that you can find the right fitting lid and not just keep grabbing for whatever seems handy. Here is where zazen comes in handy again, but in a completely different way.

I heard a great dharma talk a while back on the Houston Zen Center website http://www.houstonzen.org/
where Gaelyn Godwin talked about the value of ritual. She used the example of a baseball player that goes through a very elaborate ritual before each pitch. He will tap his hat, swing the bat, tighten his gloves, and so on, and the point of all that ritual is to slow his mind down so he can see a 100 mph fastball zipping a few feet from his head, recognize what type of pitch it is, calculate its trajectory, and then let his body move fast enough to swing the bat to hit it, hopefully. Her point was that zazen operates the same way -- it slows our mind down so that we can see things that are otherwise quite complicated -- such as holes in our life and the needs we use to try to fill those holes, boxes and lids -- more clearly. And that's where I'm at.

I was thinking to drop the need is key. But then I thought, wait a minute, where does that need come from? It must come from some lack, some hole in my life. At that point I began to think that the need is less the the issue than the lack from which that need springs, so dropping that lack is key. But then I thought, wait a minute, how do you drop a hole in your life? Should I drop both, or should I just accept both? And then I thought, let's put this on the forum. And now my thinking out loud here has taken you full circle.

When I am able to slow my thinking down it looks like lacks and needs, boxes and lids, are separate. Or are they? There seems to be a not one, not two quality to them. I think, for now at least, as I continue to think this through out loud, that recognizing the the box, the hole in life, is more beneficial in the long run. There''s also an "acceptance without acceptance" quality to this (which was what I was expecting Jundo to say :P ).

What do YOU think?

[Tb]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

Hi.

Since mybrother and uncle are both potterers, i often use the analogy of an tea bowl.

First of all, all potterer builds something around nothing and creates a spaces for that nothing, because without nothing in the middle, where would you else have anything?

Secondly, having a lid to put on the teabowl, can sometimes be helpful since it keeps the tea warm longer, but it's damn hard to drink the tea with the lid on.

thirdly, lid or no lid, you have to have some way of letting a little sunshine into the bowl sometimes, so it doesn't get to dark...

(hope it makes any sense, seems strange writing it in english...)

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[AlanLa]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

Oh! Oh! Oh! I think I got it! By accepting the hole you thus drop the need to fill that hole. It's sort of a compound non-action. Not that hard once I got it all out.

And I really like Kelly's and Fugen's posts.

[scott]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

Oh! Oh! Oh! I think I got it! By accepting the hole you thus drop the need to fill that hole. It's sort of a compound non-action. Not that hard once I got it all out.

And I really like Kelly's and Fugen's posts.

Yes :-). The hole is not the hole itself, but your response to whatever it is. Establish a nice relationship with it and the hole turns out not to be a hole after all.

[Keishin]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

Hello and Happy New Year to those posting here
Down with the 'flu and came by for a visit

for some reason these holes and boxes and lids reminded me of a story I enjoyed when I was little
we are going back a little over 50 years now between the ages of 6 and 8

there was an old woman who had holes in her blankets and she set about fixing the problem by taking her scissors and cutting the holes out

the blankets didn't keep her any warmer....

who is the famous zen master who said 'show me your mind'
to the student who said his mind was unsettled?

This is an excellent zen master

if we were to take this post to him he would ask you to show him your holes, and to bring your boxes and lids for him to see

that done, I imagine he would take the tea cup lid off Fugen's tea cup, drink the tea, and invite us to join him if we like

there are no holes and nothing needs filling

flip the coin and there are desires, and desires are inexhaustible

[Jundo]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

I agree with everything Jundo says. I believe all of that to be true, but getting to the root of that truth is what I am exploring here. How do we get to feel so complete when we have mixed up boxes and lids, holes and needs? "I think I need love, so I go get sex" is sort of an example where the box is lack (empty) of love and the mismatched lid is need for sex.

Just Sitting should fill the box as much as it can be filled (or, better said, let one experience this box never empty from the start ... in fact, what "box"?). That is the ultimate medicine which Buddhist Practice has to offer, to wit, no 'self' no 'need' 'nothing in search of completion' ...

However, so long as we are a human self, we will have the feeling of empty boxes, and mismatched boxes and lids. At that point, the Precepts guide us (such as the arrow pointing us toward "not misusing sexuality").

Which leads to the next question: Exactly how do we walk that path?

Part of the answer is zazen, where we drop boxes and lids, holes and needs. But how does this help off the cushion?

There is no separation on or off the cushion. So long as one keeps working to "fill the whole" (even with "Buddha" or "Enlightenment", as much as with food or alcohol, sex or drugs), one will never be fulfilled in the way which Buddhism offers. We bring the same dropping of judgments, needs, likes and dislikes, attractions and aversions "off the cushion" and into life.

Of course, so long as we are in life ... we will still have judgments, needs, likes and dislikes, attractions and aversions ....

So, for the rest of the time, on or off the cushion, when the "gaping need" cries out (which it will, because that is just the human condition) ... the Precepts and a bit of self-control (avoiding excess, avoiding harmful activities, dropping attachments) guiding us on passage between the rocky shoals (of excess, harm to self and others, addiction and attachment).

We do "accept" the need even as we seek not to yield to its excesses (by following the Precepts) and seek to drop it away (vie Zazen). That is ""acceptance without acceptance".(living from two viewpoints, not even one: (1) no box in need of filling (2) human boxes in need of filling, which we accept as the human condition -but- then seek to fill in healthful ways.

There is nothing wrong, by the way, with filling "needs" in one's life (for love, for companionship, for food, for recreation_ ... so long as all are done in healthful, balanced, non-excessive, ways. Eat, but not in excess. Do not be a prisoner of desires, bound up in seeking to constantly fill the hole. Seek friends and loved ones, but (the Buddha advised) those that help one down the path of life, and do not lead one into harm.

Simply, fill one's whole with Zazen ('no hole to fill'), and a salubrious life (avoiding harmful fillers, excessive fillers, attachment to fillers, addictions to fillers ... and seeking healthful fillers, balanced fillers, good healthy moderate food, mild drink, good friends and supportive loved ones ... ) ... and you will have good sailing though life, my friend, both on the calms seas and through its storms.

... zazen operates the same way -- it slows our mind down so that we can see things that are otherwise quite complicated -- such as holes in our life and the needs we use to try to fill those holes, boxes and lids -- more clearly.

Yes, our Zazen also allows us to be more aware of when the mind is playing its mind games, pulling us into greed, anger, excess, harmful activities, attachments. It does "slow things down", let us recognize the game ... and, hopefully, get out of playing it.

At that point I began to think that the need is less the the issue than the lack from which that need springs, so dropping that lack is key. But then I thought, wait a minute, how do you drop a hole in your life? Should I drop both, or should I just accept both? And then I thought, let's put this on the forum. And now my thinking out loud here has taken you full circle.

Well, drop away that whole spiraling tornado of thoughts!

Gassho, Jundo

[Rich]

Re: Box or Lid or Both?

Keishin, thank you for your story.

Yes, our Zazen also allows us to be more aware of when the mind is playing its mind games, pulling us into greed, anger, excess, harmful activities, attachments. It does "slow things down", let us recognize the game ... and, hopefully, get out of playing it.

At that point I began to think that the need is less the the issue than the lack from which that need springs, so dropping that lack is key. But then I thought, wait a minute, how do you drop a hole in your life? Should I drop both, or should I just accept both? And then I thought, let's put this on the forum. And now my thinking out loud here has taken you full circle.

Well, drop away that whole spiraling tornado of thoughts!

Gassho, Jundo

I think the function of the intellect / thinking mind is to make sense of things, to make answers; but there is no answer to the ultimate question of what is this, hence a natural inclination to a little melancholy or sadness. The practice itself is the answer, just cut off off your thinking, for me its way too dominant and out of balance anyway. Maybe I'll spend more time with nature today.