sex and prostitution

[Jundo]

Re: sex and prostitution

I have some considerable experience in being rejected. You are going on the assumption that you must be with another, and everyone else is feeding that assumption. They mean well, but reassurance is not very helpful in the practical way you need. The idea that you need to be with someone is natural, as most people are with someone else, so they go with that personal reality. But just because most people share that reality doesn't mean it is true for you right now at this moment.

I argue that it is NOT about you being with another; it is about you being with you. It is about accepting yourself as you are right now: alone.

Very very beautiful reminder, Alan, thank you. Yes.

When with someone ... be that, be fully that. When by oneself ... be that. All complete.

If looking for someone, if not looking for someone ... just your life. Things as they are.

If fear is keeping one from looking, well, perhaps we can drop away that fear. But if life just leaves one on one's own ... or if we really like it that way and are at home in that ... then just be on one's own.

If I may mess with the words of those Great Masters ... C, S & N (and sometimes Y)

if you can’t be with the one you love, honey ... be at one with just what is (cause that is who you are), love the just what is, (cause that's the one you are).

[Cameron]

Re: sex and prostitution

thank you all for some very insightful replies. I have to admit I was heading down the 'loveless sex = evil' path, it's a weight off my shoulders to hear some different perspectives.

As Rich has said, this is about more than just sex. I've felt an intense longing for a relationship for a long time. It's not like I haven't tried either. It just seems to me that no one is interested. I asked out someone I was very fond of last year and when she turned me down it triggered a relapse of my depression (I posted about it at the time). Since then I've asked out 3 other women with the same result. All of this just adds more fuel to the 'unloveable' fire and there's only so much rejection I feel I can take. Ironically, wanting a partner so much is probably hindering my chances of finding one because it if it's playing this heavily on my mind, it must come across in my interactions with women.

The 'loveless' relationship I was talking about before involves someone who has hurt me before. She's trouble with a capital T and I don't even find her particularly attractive but she's the only one who seems interested.

it's not all bad news though. thanks to therapy and zazen I've gone from a socially anxious, depressed & paranoid recluse to someone who doesn't need or carry those labels around any more. there are now many more good days than bad ones, and every now and then even just days, neither good nor bad.

Yes, women can smell 'hunger' and they avoid it.

Chet

Well, I think healthy women will avoid unhealthy men just as healthy men will avoid unhealthy women. If you are not healthy, you will attract an unhealthy partner and thus begins the toxic relationship. Alan's on target. Focus on yourself. Be patient. Don't strive for or be distracted by mental representations as your life passes by, let things unfold as you do whatever it is you do. It's not so much the consideration of the future, but the decision made and action done in the present. One day, BAM, you'll meet someone. I really like that poem Jundo posted. I'd never heard that before. It is a nice thought. My advice for finding someone is to evaluate your interests and then do them in public, in groups, in clubs, take a class in something, do things you once enjoyed in the past but somehow set aside, etc. etc. You are guaranteed to have things in common with the people you will meet. DON'T DO THIS ONLINE!!! You need to see the eyes... and other things. ;-P

Cam

[Keishin]

Re: sex and prostitution

Rob,
Thank you for starting this thread. With too much to share here, I sent you a PM.
One of the things I said to you there and will repeat here is that sex is mysterious to me, as are relationships in which sex takes place.
I don't know how, but when they work, they work and I don't know why, but when they don't, they don't.

wishing all of us the best of luck in these waters--from wading pool to wide ocean--!

[disastermouse]

Re: sex and prostitution

thank you all for some very insightful replies. I have to admit I was heading down the 'loveless sex = evil' path, it's a weight off my shoulders to hear some different perspectives.

As Rich has said, this is about more than just sex. I've felt an intense longing for a relationship for a long time. It's not like I haven't tried either. It just seems to me that no one is interested. I asked out someone I was very fond of last year and when she turned me down it triggered a relapse of my depression (I posted about it at the time). Since then I've asked out 3 other women with the same result. All of this just adds more fuel to the 'unloveable' fire and there's only so much rejection I feel I can take. Ironically, wanting a partner so much is probably hindering my chances of finding one because it if it's playing this heavily on my mind, it must come across in my interactions with women.

The 'loveless' relationship I was talking about before involves someone who has hurt me before. She's trouble with a capital T and I don't even find her particularly attractive but she's the only one who seems interested.

it's not all bad news though. thanks to therapy and zazen I've gone from a socially anxious, depressed & paranoid recluse to someone who doesn't need or carry those labels around any more. there are now many more good days than bad ones, and every now and then even just days, neither good nor bad.

Yes, women can smell 'hunger' and they avoid it.

Chet

Well, I think healthy women will avoid unhealthy men just as healthy men will avoid unhealthy women. If you are not healthy, you will attract an unhealthy partner and thus begins the toxic relationship. Alan's on target. Focus on yourself. Be patient. Don't strive for or be distracted by mental representations as your life passes by, let things unfold as you do whatever it is you do. It's not so much the consideration of the future, but the decision made and action done in the present. One day, BAM, you'll meet someone. I really like that poem Jundo posted. I'd never heard that before. It is a nice thought. My advice for finding someone is to evaluate your interests and then do them in public, in groups, in clubs, take a class in something, do things you once enjoyed in the past but somehow set aside, etc. etc. You are guaranteed to have things in common with the people you will meet. DON'T DO THIS ONLINE!!! You need to see the eyes... and other things. ;-P

Cam

You don't have to be unhealthy to be hungry.

Take a look at your own mind. Most of what's going on in there isn't relevant to anything. Hell, most of it isn't even coherent, irrelevant bullshit. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Every woman you meet has the same crazy shit-storm going on in her head...the same unconscious programming...everything. Rejection isn't personal - hell, it can't be personal - because whatever representation her crazy-shit-storm brain comes up for you is so far from the mark that she's mostly just rejecting unconsciously projected parts of her own mind. And of course, this is all true of you too.

Stop trying to get laid, but don't avoid it. By all means, when you start hearing the 'bom-chicka-bom-bom' music (every man knows what I'm talking about)- dive in! In the meantime, get to know just how batshit your internal environment is. Get intimately aware of just what's driving you (both to sex AND to celibacy).

IMHO.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: sex and prostitution

And for some reason, this made me think of a Modest Mouse song..

"No one really knows the ones they love. If you really knew everything they thought about, you'd wish that they'd just shut up."

Chet

[chicanobudista]

Re: sex and prostitution

I feel my choices boil down to the lesser of two "evils". a sexual but loveless relationship or sex with a prostitute. either way I think it's a lose/lose situation and I'd like to know what others think.

I will assume that you may consider sex with a sex workers/prostitute not just once, but a couple of times during a year.

Take aside the issue of comodification of sexuality.
Take aside how by in large part prostitutes are treated by their "pimps." (violence, etc).
Take aside the reason why a good number end up becoming prostitutes.

There is an issue of health. Sexual health. Having sex with someone with multiple partners who in great probability did not protect themselves (used condoms, do not do intravenous drug use, keep up with health checks, ask their clients about their sexual health, etc) may run you the great risk of contracting an STD or STDs.

Sure. Getting the BB's may get you all into a bundle of emotions and what not....but....there are ways of satisfying your sexual health and appetite that does not require you to get into a situation that may be a great health risk.

Caveat: And yes. I know not all sex workers are walking health disasters, but they are not living the Pretty Woman lifestyle. :wink:

[kfrance0]

Re: sex and prostitution

I have some considerable experience in being rejected. You are going on the assumption that you must be with another, and everyone else is feeding that assumption. They mean well, but reassurance is not very helpful in the practical way you need. The idea that you need to be with someone is natural, as most people are with someone else, so they go with that personal reality. But just because most people share that reality doesn't mean it is true for you right now at this moment.

I argue that it is NOT about you being with another; it is about you being with you. It is about accepting yourself as you are right now: alone. Harsh, but accepting yourself as you are now needs to happen before others can bring you into their life in an intimate way. If you can fully accept yourself, fully and completely embrace who you are and all you are in a personally intimate way, even the not-so-good stuff that you want to change, then that's all you need. By fully accepting yourself the need for another drops away. She may come, she may not. There may be a "red thread," as Jundo says, but there may be not. In any case, it won't matter. To believe in this destiny of another in your future just sets up a waiting type of desire that is just another stumbling block when you have already stumbled too much. Drop it! Dropping this idea of a need for another has been my answer to my history or rejection, so maybe it can work for you too. But it takes lots of time, practice, and patience.

There is no peace to be found in others, only in yourself. But this doesn't mean to further isolate yourself or to stop trying. Keep going out there, keep talking to women, keep being social. Make friends, play well with others. Just do so while giving up on the idea that someone somewhere someday somehow will make it all better for you, because that is a big delusion.

From one sufferer to another, metta to you!

I was going to reply in much the same vein, but you said it all much better than I could have. This is something that I've experienced myself. Heck, it's even something I knew before, while I was going through it. But I think it's one of those things you have to really internalize yourself...just being told it won't get through, even if you hear it and it makes sense. You've really got to be okay with being alone, deep down. When you are, you are a more interesting, more healthy person, who is much more attractive (in every way, even attracting straight, same-sex friends) than someone who's needy and looking for someone to give them attention--even meaning that in a nice way. I've been alone, and I've been romantically involved with people...both have their good parts and bad parts, and I can be happy and content either way. When you're really okay with being just you, yourself, not-involved-with-someone, it frees you up to develop as a person. Read about things that intrest you. Learn a musical instrument. Learn to paint or take photos. Volunteer for a charitable cause. All of these things can have a deep value for your life and contribute to it greatly. And hey, guess what? Being able to do these things makes you more attractive to others. When someone does come along, you'll have so much more to offer.

[disastermouse]

Re: sex and prostitution

I have some considerable experience in being rejected. You are going on the assumption that you must be with another, and everyone else is feeding that assumption. They mean well, but reassurance is not very helpful in the practical way you need. The idea that you need to be with someone is natural, as most people are with someone else, so they go with that personal reality. But just because most people share that reality doesn't mean it is true for you right now at this moment.

I argue that it is NOT about you being with another; it is about you being with you. It is about accepting yourself as you are right now: alone. Harsh, but accepting yourself as you are now needs to happen before others can bring you into their life in an intimate way. If you can fully accept yourself, fully and completely embrace who you are and all you are in a personally intimate way, even the not-so-good stuff that you want to change, then that's all you need. By fully accepting yourself the need for another drops away. She may come, she may not. There may be a "red thread," as Jundo says, but there may be not. In any case, it won't matter. To believe in this destiny of another in your future just sets up a waiting type of desire that is just another stumbling block when you have already stumbled too much. Drop it! Dropping this idea of a need for another has been my answer to my history or rejection, so maybe it can work for you too. But it takes lots of time, practice, and patience.

There is no peace to be found in others, only in yourself. But this doesn't mean to further isolate yourself or to stop trying. Keep going out there, keep talking to women, keep being social. Make friends, play well with others. Just do so while giving up on the idea that someone somewhere someday somehow will make it all better for you, because that is a big delusion.

From one sufferer to another, metta to you!

I was going to reply in much the same vein, but you said it all much better than I could have. This is something that I've experienced myself. Heck, it's even something I knew before, while I was going through it. But I think it's one of those things you have to really internalize yourself...just being told it won't get through, even if you hear it and it makes sense. You've really got to be okay with being alone, deep down. When you are, you are a more interesting, more healthy person, who is much more attractive (in every way, even attracting straight, same-sex friends) than someone who's needy and looking for someone to give them attention--even meaning that in a nice way. I've been alone, and I've been romantically involved with people...both have their good parts and bad parts, and I can be happy and content either way. When you're really okay with being just you, yourself, not-involved-with-someone, it frees you up to develop as a person. Read about things that intrest you. Learn a musical instrument. Learn to paint or take photos. Volunteer for a charitable cause. All of these things can have a deep value for your life and contribute to it greatly. And hey, guess what? Being able to do these things makes you more attractive to others. When someone does come along, you'll have so much more to offer.

What you should ask yourself re: relationships, IMHO, is this: What do I think will change if I get what I want? It's an old joke that the single selectively craves the benefits of being a couple while forgetting the downsides while the coupled selectively craves the freedom benefits of being a single while forgetting the downsides.

Stephanie gives me a lot of crap about the fact that I say that, as opposed to previous times in my life (under the influence of Borderline PD) when I've felt desperately in need of a relationship, recently I don't feel that need so much. She gives me crap about it because I've been in two relationships since then. But hey! There's no reason to avoid a relationship to 'prove' that you don't really need them.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: sex and prostitution

What you should ask yourself re: relationships, IMHO, is this: What do I think will change if I get what I want? It's an old joke that the single selectively craves the benefits of being a couple while forgetting the downsides while the coupled selectively craves the freedom benefits of being a single while forgetting the downsides.

Stephanie gives me a lot of crap about the fact that I say that, as opposed to previous times in my life (under the influence of Borderline PD) when I've felt desperately in need of a relationship, recently I don't feel that need so much. She gives me crap about it because I've been in two relationships since then. But hey! There's no reason to avoid a relationship to 'prove' that you don't really need them.

Chet

Always appreciate the perfection** of the grass on one's side of the fence.

Also appreciate the perfection** of the grass on the other side of the fence.

So, nothing to prevent one from abiding on this side, or visiting the other side, as the mood strikes.

One should not crave the other side of the fence from this side, nor be attached to one side of the fence or the other ...

But yet wander from place to place ... always here, and here, and here.

Gassho, J

** NOTE: that's a "perfection", by the way, which has nothing to do with which is truly fuller and greener. Our lawn is always perfectly our lawn, each blade of grass holding the entire cosmos within ... and that is true whether there are weeds and bald patches and brown spots or not. In fact, each weed is perfectly weedy!

Now, that be said, nothing to prevent us from plucking weeds and watering

[Keishin]

Re: sex and prostitution

Rob,
I appreciate considering the different facets your thread brings up for me, and I appreciate the various responses posted here.
I got to wondering about the limitation in the 'choice' you had given yourself (loveless relationship or prostitute), and it had me thinking about the limitations I pose on 'choices' for myself. This has been quite a revelation to me--that when I supposedly am giving myself a 'choice,' in fact I am cutting off almost all other infinite possibilities.
Also I got to think about assumptions: I assume I know what sex is and I assume I know what having sex with another person is about or means, when really, even though I have engaged in sexual behavior with a partner (or not), the truth is, I really don't know what was actually occurring even though I was right there and somewhere in the middle of it at the time.

From my experience, the more specific and particular I have made my expectation of something--the more unsatisfactory it is when I receive it
Is it possible for me to not have an idea about what it is I am expecting/anticipating? Or at least, is it possible for me to be vague?
When the event occurs, I don't even think I experience it--I think I am experiencing instead my 'this-didn't-meet-my-expectations' I've projected onto the event/or person.

I know I wrote above that sex is mysterious to me and that relationships in which sex takes place are mysterious but I fell far far short in that statement--because the longer I look, I find that everything is mysterious and all relationships are mysterious whether or not 'sex' takes place in them or not.

It has been said that 'koans arise naturally in one's daily life.' Assuredly this thread is a discussion of your current koan.

I thank you again for your post, Rob, and I thank others here for wonderful, considered answers.

[AlanLa]

Re: sex and prostitution

Consider this, Rob:
How do you feel about yourself right now?
How will you feel about yourself if you have sex with a prostitute?
How will you feel about yourself if you have sex with a woman you describe as "trouble"?
Can you accept yourself now? Will you be able to accept yourself better if you take one of these choices you give yourself? As Keishin says, what other choices might you have? And how might the choices you make affect how you feel about yourself?

[stranger]

Re: sex and prostitution

this thread continues to provide food for thought (not always a good thing) but my attitude on the whole situation has changed drastically in the space of a few days. I'm now 'OK' with the idea of sex without love or commitment. That in itself is a big deal for me. I'm a bit of a romantic at heart and have always clung to the idea that sex is something special between two people who love one another. It can be that of course but it can also just be a fundamental human act no different to eating, sleeping or breathing as some of you have pointed out.

With the change in attitude however,it feels as though a great burden has gone. I can't remember the last time I felt so at ease with things. Yesterday and today I've had the odd thoughts of sex but nowhere near as intense or as frequent as on other days. It seems my sex drive is back to 'normal' . After all that anguish and conflict was it just a case of wanting what I thought I couldn't have? It seems to me that now it's no longer off limits it's lost some of it's appeal. I think my new attitude - if it happens it happens - is much healthier and one I hope will stick around.

you and me baby aint nothing but mammals so let's do it like they do on the discovery channel

[disastermouse]

Re: sex and prostitution

What you should ask yourself re: relationships, IMHO, is this: What do I think will change if I get what I want? It's an old joke that the single selectively craves the benefits of being a couple while forgetting the downsides while the coupled selectively craves the freedom benefits of being a single while forgetting the downsides.

Stephanie gives me a lot of crap about the fact that I say that, as opposed to previous times in my life (under the influence of Borderline PD) when I've felt desperately in need of a relationship, recently I don't feel that need so much. She gives me crap about it because I've been in two relationships since then. But hey! There's no reason to avoid a relationship to 'prove' that you don't really need them.

Chet

Always appreciate the perfection** of the grass on one's side of the fence.

Also appreciate the perfection** of the grass on the other side of the fence.

So, nothing to prevent one from abiding on this side, or visiting the other side, as the mood strikes.

One should not crave the other side of the fence from this side, nor be attached to one side of the fence or the other ...

But yet wander from place to place ... always here, and here, and here.

Gassho, J

** NOTE: that's a "perfection", by the way, which has nothing to do with which is truly fuller and greener. Our lawn is always perfectly our lawn, each blade of grass holding the entire cosmos within ... and that is true whether there are weeds and bald patches and brown spots or not. In fact, each weed is perfectly weedy!

Now, that be said, nothing to prevent us from plucking weeds and watering

Gassho, Jundo.

Chet

[humblepie]

Re: sex and prostitution

this thread continues to provide food for thought (not always a good thing) but my attitude on the whole situation has changed drastically in the space of a few days. I'm now 'OK' with the idea of sex without love or commitment. That in itself is a big deal for me. I'm a bit of a romantic at heart and have always clung to the idea that sex is something special between two people who love one another. It can be that of course but it can also just be a fundamental human act no different to eating, sleeping or breathing as some of you have pointed out.

With the change in attitude however,it feels as though a great burden has gone. I can't remember the last time I felt so at ease with things. Yesterday and today I've had the odd thoughts of sex but nowhere near as intense or as frequent as on other days. It seems my sex drive is back to 'normal' . After all that anguish and conflict was it just a case of wanting what I thought I couldn't have? It seems to me that now it's no longer off limits it's lost some of it's appeal. I think my new attitude - if it happens it happens - is much healthier and one I hope will stick around.

you and me baby aint nothing but mammals so let's do it like they do on the discovery channel

Oh, now that Bloodhound Gang song is stuck in my head! There's been so many good insights in this thread, but your last post drew me back to one of Chet's first replies...about going after sex without love and finding that it leads you where you didn't expect it. This really is the way a lot of men go, been there and done that myself.

I should also mention, though, that when I indulged in loveless sex, it was the darkest, most depressing time of my life...until I met my would-be wife. Don't be surprised if things get worse before they get better. And remember that when you "hook up" with someone just for sex, there's a lot more involved whether you want it or not.

Peace,
Dave

[will]

Re: sex and prostitution

We practice through the shit. Urges, confrontation, delusion, aggression, desire, greed and so on.

Name one person who has never gotten angry, greedy, full of them self, depressed, worried, or doubtful.

Gassho