sex and prostitution

[Guest]

I'm struggling with a somewhat sensitive issue and changed my mind several times about starting this thread but here goes. I have suffered a variety of emotional problems throughout my life and have never been in a loving or stable relationship with anyone. Since I became a buddhist several years ago I've decided to follow the third precept as best I can and have chosen not to have sex until I was in a relationship with someone I loved and have therefore been celibate for a number of years.

lately however, for the past 8 months or so, I have really struggled with sex and sexual desire. to be blunt, I'm plagued/obsessed by thoughts of sex. I've tried to let things be thinking they would pass in their own time but I no longer think I can, and nor do I feel I should continue to fight/not fight what is a natural human impulse.

I feel my choices boil down to the lesser of two "evils". a sexual but loveless relationship or sex with a prostitute. either way I think it's a lose/lose situation and I'd like to know what others think.

Ghasso
Rob

[disastermouse]

Re: sex and prostitution

I'm struggling with a somewhat sensitive issue and changed my mind several times about starting this thread but here goes. I have suffered a variety of emotional problems throughout my life and have never been in a loving or stable relationship with anyone. Since I became a buddhist several years ago I've decided to follow the third precept as best I can and have chosen not to have sex until I was in a relationship with someone I loved and have therefore been celibate for a number of years.

lately however, for the past 8 months or so, I have really struggled with sex and sexual desire. to be blunt, I'm plagued/obsessed by thoughts of sex. I've tried to let things be thinking they would pass in their own time but I no longer think I can, and nor do I feel I should continue to fight/not fight what is a natural human impulse.

I feel my choices boil down to the lesser of two "evils". a sexual but loveless relationship or sex with a prostitute. either way I think it's a lose/lose situation and I'd like to know what others think.

Ghasso
Rob

Wow, you've put yourself in a real bind here, or so it seems.

Why not try the loveless relationship? It's the tried and true way of men everywhere and it often leads to a loving relationship seemingly against one's will.

Honestly though, if you try to behave as if you're less deluded than you really are, it leads to conflicts like this. You've been suppressing your urge to do the nasty and now it simply will not be silenced. Why are you using Buddhism to justify your totally neurotic attitude toward sex? It is an abuse of the precepts, I dare say. It is certainly more harmful and violent to oneself than would be an honest dalliance with a willing partner.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: sex and prostitution

Hi Rob,

Yes, obviously, you have got yourself into a a real hellish situation. Sex has been discussed in previous threads, regarding the precepts for Jukai. You may have a look. I don't see anything wrong in relaxing and enjoying life and sex, the way Buddhists see sex vary a lot , but it has very little to do with the Christian take on the whole matter. Sex, for most of us, is an important and healthy part of life. Relating to a prostitute won't quench the thirst and seems to me a violation of more than one precept. Having sex and building a relationship as you go along is also a valid option as Chet points out.


And please, don't disregard this urge. Look at it in much more friendly way. Look into it. Look deeper. Look at the core. Beyond the flame and the burn. Beyond the madness and the painful impulse. You may, in the very middle of this, find a peaceful and vast space.

gassho


Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: sex and prostitution

Is there some reason you can't settle for flying solo? :wink:

Phoenix

I don't know about other guys, but for me - it is just so much 'not-the-same'. They are almost two different types of sexuality for me...

Chet

[roky]

Re: sex and prostitution

well, where ever this takes you, make an attempt to be honest with yourself, and hopefully with others involved -- that is awareness, practice -- that is my only golden rule(other than a condom), not any "thou shalt not..."' -- and i'm aware as i type this that i am saying it to myself, sorting this difficult issue out personally -- still

depending on what setting your biologic drive is at, stopping sex is like stopping taking a shit -- not healthy -- and i remember the "body hunger" being not even touched by masturbation

on a humorous note, check out robin william's take on this in "the adventures of baron von munchausen", by terry gilliam -- "the head is dead, long live the bodÿ!"

my old teacher, who was a horny sort, and just a lover of life, taught that the body had its own intelligence -- so when doing a painful sit, you see the difference between the body's pain, and all your thoughts surrounding that -- often, once the surrounding thoughts are dealt with, the pain is not that big -- same with this sex thing, make an attempt to seperate the obsessive thoughts, from the body need -- then maybe the body's need isn't that great -- or maybe it is

the sterotype is correct: sexually frustrated people are nasty -- check out the history of religion -- so sit, shit, eat, drink, and screw, completely, and with gusto -- we are all animals, we are all one animal, so go celebrate

oops, too one-sided -- the other half is that what really matters is intimacy, just holding someone close, and whatever happens, or doesn't happen, thats fine -- and i do wish for you, as i can see you desire, that that will be yours someday -- but in the meantime.......

gassho, roky

[Jundo]

Re: sex and prostitution

Hi,

We had a very nice chat on issues of sex in study for our last Jukai (and I am sure we will for our upcoming Jukai too) ...

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1207

As currently interpreted in most of the modern Zen traditions, the emphasis is on "not misusing sexuality" in place of strict "celibacy" (although there may be times in life when celibacy, as with any form of fasting or other mild forms of self-denial, are good practices for a time).

"Not misusing sexuality" fundamentally comes down to seeking, as one can, that "nobody get hurt" either in obvious or subtle ways. A stable, loving relationship is usually the best vehicle for that, although perhaps (as with most aspects of the Precepts) even that is not intended to be applied as an iron law or "commandment" ... more a guide to healthful, harmless living, a sound rule of thumb, an arrow pointing to a helpful path and peaceful way of life. Very few, if any, actions or relationships will even be purely harmless and perfectly healthful ... and life is often a mixed bag. But to the extent we can, amid life's tangles, we head in the direction of the healthful and avoid harm.

The Buddha, and traditional Buddhists (even today in Asian countries other than Japan) have had a very strict attitude toward sex ... requiring celibacy of monks (although never of unordained householders). Over the centuries, the attitude moved more toward one of balance, moderation, avoiding excess and harm (same for sex as for food and drink). The emphasis became less the suppressing and denial of the drives and senses, and more simply avoiding excess and misuse. I believe it a very good change.

I believe that the comments by others above are sound ... How are you yourself talking yourself into this bind for yourself? Who is making this dilemma for you but you?

I am sorry that some terrible trauma has caused you to feel that you must struggle to have a "loving or stable relationship with anyone" ... but (in addition to any other therapy or help you are receiving for that) that is one thought about yourself that you can certainly drop on the cushion. Our self's thoughts create such fears and and assumptions about ourself, and those can all be left behind. I hope you find love and happiness in this life with a good, long term partner.

And in the meantime ... get out there, start dating and looking for that person. If it feels pleasant and balanced, and nobody gets hurt ... it is probably just fine.

Gassho, Jundo

[Rich]

Re: sex and prostitution

Rob, I don't think this is just about sex. It's more about being in a relationship. You can take care of your physical sexual needs right now. The next step is making a plan to find somebody to build a relationship with. As far as love - like the song said 'Love is just a four letter word' - what you do in the relationship is what matters. You can be happy on your own, but having someone to help and support is very rewarding. Good Luck!

[Cameron]

Re: sex and prostitution

Give up celibacy. Find a girl you like. Not necessarily in that order.

Good luck

Cam

[Eika]

Re: sex and prostitution

Hi, Rob.

Others have already said a lot that I would agree with.

Your solution (loveless sex or hookers) is, I think, too simplistic an answer for a complex issue. Yours seems particularly complex given your admission of emotional issues.

The idea that having sex will diminish your urges to have sex is, in my experience, unrealistic. Sure, the urge will diminish for a short period, but in the long run, sex will not rid you of your sexual urges, it may even make them stronger. There is nothing particularly wrong with urges anyway, it is the actions that follow them that matter. It is our discomfort, our thinking "I shouldn't have to live with these urges," that most often is the problem. Having the urge to eat a quart of ice cream is not the same as having to eat a quart of ice cream. An urge is just a thought . . . an annoying, unrelenting, vivid, primal thought, but still just a thought. Thoughts are no big deal unless we act on them in ways that hurt ourselves or others.

I hope you find the answer you need (even though it might not be the answer you want).

Peace,
Bill

[stranger]

Re: sex and prostitution

thank you all for some very insightful replies. I have to admit I was heading down the 'loveless sex = evil' path, it's a weight off my shoulders to hear some different perspectives.

As Rich has said, this is about more than just sex. I've felt an intense longing for a relationship for a long time. It's not like I haven't tried either. It just seems to me that no one is interested. I asked out someone I was very fond of last year and when she turned me down it triggered a relapse of my depression (I posted about it at the time). Since then I've asked out 3 other women with the same result. All of this just adds more fuel to the 'unloveable' fire and there's only so much rejection I feel I can take. Ironically, wanting a partner so much is probably hindering my chances of finding one because it if it's playing this heavily on my mind, it must come across in my interactions with women.

The 'loveless' relationship I was talking about before involves someone who has hurt me before. She's trouble with a capital T and I don't even find her particularly attractive but she's the only one who seems interested.

it's not all bad news though. thanks to therapy and zazen I've gone from a socially anxious, depressed & paranoid recluse to someone who doesn't need or carry those labels around any more. there are now many more good days than bad ones, and every now and then even just days, neither good nor bad.

[Jundo]

Re: sex and prostitution

it's not all bad news though. thanks to therapy and zazen I've gone from a socially anxious, depressed & paranoid recluse to someone who doesn't need or carry those labels around any more. there are now many more good days than bad ones, and every now and then even just days, neither good nor bad.

Yes, continue with the therapy ... and some courses on "talking to the opposite sex for shy guys" and such ... and the Zazen. All can go hand-in-hand.

I am sure there is love in your future. Something good awaits. Somebody is out there who, the Japanese and Chinese say, you are tied to with a red string (akai ito de musubareta) from even before you were born.

"An invisible red thread connects those who are destined to meet,
regardless of time, place, or circumstance.
The thread may stretch or tangle,
but it will never break."
- an ancient Chinese belief

Gassho, Jundo (painfully shy once ... which I now realize was my own mental creation)

[Shohei]

Re: sex and prostitution

Nothing insightful here but i learned this from experience...

when you stop TRYING really hard and to find that some one you end up banging smack in to them.

Sexual drive is normal and like all things... ALL Things...you push hard against it will naturally push hard back. This idea that suppressing a drive is holy or right goes against the very teachings we try to work with and make work. Clinging to the idea that YOU MUST NOT TOUCH is not healthy. Nothing wrong with choosing to do so unless your harming your self. You and your body know will find that balance.

"flying solo" is not a sub for a relationship...but all relationships are not sexual forever. Everything changes including that...being married and 2 little ones, working and living - there isnt always Sex on demand - every time your feeling like it..hell I may be on but my wife maybe off or my 5 month old maybe hungry or my 3 year old had a night mare or the 4 cats wanna see whats going on , the roof is leaking, etc on and on.

Any way i think you got the picture long before i posted.

Gassho, Shohei

[disastermouse]

Re: sex and prostitution

thank you all for some very insightful replies. I have to admit I was heading down the 'loveless sex = evil' path, it's a weight off my shoulders to hear some different perspectives.

As Rich has said, this is about more than just sex. I've felt an intense longing for a relationship for a long time. It's not like I haven't tried either. It just seems to me that no one is interested. I asked out someone I was very fond of last year and when she turned me down it triggered a relapse of my depression (I posted about it at the time). Since then I've asked out 3 other women with the same result. All of this just adds more fuel to the 'unloveable' fire and there's only so much rejection I feel I can take. Ironically, wanting a partner so much is probably hindering my chances of finding one because it if it's playing this heavily on my mind, it must come across in my interactions with women.

The 'loveless' relationship I was talking about before involves someone who has hurt me before. She's trouble with a capital T and I don't even find her particularly attractive but she's the only one who seems interested.

it's not all bad news though. thanks to therapy and zazen I've gone from a socially anxious, depressed & paranoid recluse to someone who doesn't need or carry those labels around any more. there are now many more good days than bad ones, and every now and then even just days, neither good nor bad.

Yes, women can smell 'hunger' and they avoid it.

Chet

[Rich]

Re: sex and prostitution

Rob, finding and building relationships is a skill and art which can be learned (as Jundo pointed to ) and it has very little to do with how you look. go to some of the dating sites like Yahoo Personals and read all the articles, tips and techniques and then just practice. I am definitely not an expert but when i became a widower, I did jump into this and came up smiling. I have a feeling yu will be truly amazed.

[AlanLa]

Re: sex and prostitution

I have some considerable experience in being rejected. You are going on the assumption that you must be with another, and everyone else is feeding that assumption. They mean well, but reassurance is not very helpful in the practical way you need. The idea that you need to be with someone is natural, as most people are with someone else, so they go with that personal reality. But just because most people share that reality doesn't mean it is true for you right now at this moment.

I argue that it is NOT about you being with another; it is about you being with you. It is about accepting yourself as you are right now: alone. Harsh, but accepting yourself as you are now needs to happen before others can bring you into their life in an intimate way. If you can fully accept yourself, fully and completely embrace who you are and all you are in a personally intimate way, even the not-so-good stuff that you want to change, then that's all you need. By fully accepting yourself the need for another drops away. She may come, she may not. There may be a "red thread," as Jundo says, but there may be not. In any case, it won't matter. To believe in this destiny of another in your future just sets up a waiting type of desire that is just another stumbling block when you have already stumbled too much. Drop it! Dropping this idea of a need for another has been my answer to my history or rejection, so maybe it can work for you too. But it takes lots of time, practice, and patience.

There is no peace to be found in others, only in yourself. But this doesn't mean to further isolate yourself or to stop trying. Keep going out there, keep talking to women, keep being social. Make friends, play well with others. Just do so while giving up on the idea that someone somewhere someday somehow will make it all better for you, because that is a big delusion.

From one sufferer to another, metta to you!