Self as salvation...

[Keishin]

Re: Self as salvation...

May I quote a translation of the Great Heart of Wisdom Sutra:


"....Nothing is pure, nothing is defiled..."


I think I understand what you are saying....but after all, isn't there this "Soto" brand of zen and this "Rinzai" brand of zen and other zen 'brands' as well?
I don't know any other religion which has people hanging on to the 'head' guy or gal's words the way people do for 'eastern' religions
I never ran across a Catholic or Episcopalian who went on and on about 'my priest this and my priest that and this is what I'm working on in 'confession' etc. I never ran across a born again Christian that didn't hold their minister as being god's mouthpiece, but they didn't claim a lineage of ministers going back to the first one who got it from God's mouth to their ear! At communion no one seems to brag about their wafer being 'holier' than thou's. But in some of the sitting groups I've been with there has been a very competitive component.

Really, to be an ordinary person is extraordinary.

Finding a teacher who teaches this very ordinariness is rare.

(And thank you Chet, and others here for another lively thread.)
I am refraining from discussing my views regarding the trademarking of Big Mind as intellectual property....maybe another time...

[Jundo]

Re: Self as salvation...

May I quote a translation of the Great Heart of Wisdom Sutra:


"....Nothing is pure, nothing is defiled..."


I think I understand what you are saying....but after all, isn't there this "Soto" brand of zen and this "Rinzai" brand of zen and other zen 'brands' as well?
I don't know any other religion which has people hanging on to the 'head' guy or gal's words the way people do for 'eastern' religions
I never ran across a Catholic or Episcopalian who went on and on about 'my priest this and my priest that and this is what I'm working on in 'confession' etc. I never ran across a born again Christian that didn't hold their minister as being god's mouthpiece, but they didn't claim a lineage of ministers going back to the first one who got it from God's mouth to their ear! At communion no one seems to brag about their wafer being 'holier' than thou's. But in some of the sitting groups I've been with there has been a very competitive component.

Really, to be an ordinary person is extraordinary.

Finding a teacher who teaches this very ordinariness is rare.

(And thank you Chet, and others here for another lively thread.)
I am refraining from discussing my views regarding the trademarking of Big Mind as intellectual property....maybe another time...

Thank you, Keishin. Bows on bows.

[will]

Re: Self as salvation...

One day while walking in the vegetable garden at Tassajara, Suzuki noticed a student who was sitting on a stone looking at a sunflower growing nearby. He went over and sat by her.

"What are you doing?"

"Meditating with the sunflower," she said. "It rotates with the sun."

Suzuki sat with her for a long time. That night Suzuki referred to his garden visit.

"Unless you get through to emptiness, you are not practicing. But if you stick to the idea of emptiness, you are not a Buddhist yet. Someone was sitting in front of a sunflower, watching the sunflower, a cup of sun, and so I tried it too. It was wonderful; I felt the whole universe in the sunflower. That was my experience. Sunflower meditation. A wonderful confidence appeared. You can see the whole universe in a flower. If you say, 'Oh this is a sunflower which doesn't really exist' [laughing], that is not our zazen practice."

[Eika]

Re: Self as salvation...

...that is marketed as jazz like Kenny G, etc.

That cat could play some serious straight up jazz though. Years back, before he passed, Roy Cummings his old professor from UW showed us some videos from his college days and as a fellow jazz musician I would have to say that not only did he have great chops, but he just had a natural ability to fall into the groove.

Apparently elevator music was his calling though...

Sorry, getting off topic.

Yeah, I"ve heard that he did a gig or two with Art Blakey's band and really smoked. I can't really fault him for choosing to make a bit of money, nonetheless, his instrumental-pop records are tedious and difficult to consider a real part of the jazz catalog. He is a very talented saxophonist. He makes more per gig than I do. Then again, Madonna makes more than Yo Yo Ma.

Bill

[Eika]

Re: Self as salvation...

I don't know any other religion which has people hanging on to the 'head' guy or gal's words the way people do for 'eastern' religions
I never ran across a Catholic or Episcopalian who went on and on about 'my priest this and my priest that and this is what I'm working on in 'confession' etc. I never ran across a born again Christian that didn't hold their minister as being god's mouthpiece, but they didn't claim a lineage of ministers going back to the first one who got it from God's mouth to their ear! At communion no one seems to brag about their wafer being 'holier' than thou's. But in some of the sitting groups I've been with there has been a very competitive component.

Really, to be an ordinary person is extraordinary.

I'm a recovering competitor myself . . . thanks, Keishin.

Peace,
Bill

[disastermouse]

Re: Self as salvation...

I must respectfully disagree with the notion that Soto is a brand. Brands are an attempt to replace actual relationships with an 'idea' or image designed to stand in for such relationships. In this way, Soto is really more of a descriptor than a brand. Brands are an attempt to conjure or confer uniqueness upon a commodity that is otherwise generic and undifferentiated product. The differences between Soto and Rinzai are such that we would find new descriptive names for them if the current names were wiped from the record. I don't think we'd do that for types of toilet paper or rolled oats.

My point with the first post is that practice teaches you rather quickly that many things with which you strongly identify are much more arbitrary than you thought and that all of them are conditioned. Nonetheless, this is not always a natural outcome of concentration practice. What are we to make of the use of concentration for the enhancement of the self and how do we discourage the false attribution of such self-centering to Buddhism (a central theme of which is self-un-centering)?

Ultimately, I think we can't 'fight' this, but I think we need to be careful that WE understand the difference and that we emphasize that difference to newcomers because they may very well have these misunderstandings.

Chet