Naked Zen

[AlanLa]

Re: Naked Zen

When nitpicking, just nitpick.

When you've got to :lol:


Gassho

Who has to nitpick? This "I" perhaps?
Drop the "I" and there is no nitpicking.
Drop the I" and there is no thought of being nitpicked.

Bye now, says I now

[will]

Re: Naked Zen

Who has to nitpick? This "I" perhaps?
Drop the "I" and there is no nitpicking.
Drop the I" and there is no thought of being nitpicked.

Bye now, says I now

No body's perfect.

But dropping the "I" is not something that "we" do. It is natural. It is just this. Who you are. Beyond likes and dislikes, good and bad, mistakes and stupidity. Human beings make mistakes on a day to day basis. Practice is opening to a wider view where our mistakes are included in our experience. We learn from our mistakes and sometimes fall back into them. I could say that nitpicking is who I am. I'm fine with that. I nitpick. No prob. As long as I recognize it. There's joy in discovering our mistakes. Practice is intimate, joyful, expression.

Gassho _/_

W

[Rich]

Re: Naked Zen

Who has to nitpick? This "I" perhaps?
Drop the "I" and there is no nitpicking.
Drop the I" and there is no thought of being nitpicked.

Bye now, says I now

No body's perfect.

But dropping the "I" is not something that "we" do. It is natural. It is just this. Who you are. Beyond likes and dislikes, good and bad, mistakes and stupidity. Human beings make mistakes on a day to day basis. Practice is opening to a wider view where our mistakes are included in our experience. We learn from our mistakes and sometimes fall back into them. I could say that nitpicking is who I am. I'm fine with that. I nitpick. No prob. As long as I recognize it. There's joy in discovering our mistakes. Practice is intimate, joyful, expression.

Gassho _/_

W

"But dropping the "I" is not something that "we" do. It is natural. It is just this. Who you are." I think this is true. Don't make anything. That's a big mistake. Since doing so often is a habit, just continue practicing.
/Rich

[Taigu]

Re: Naked Zen

Bow to you, Rich and Will, bow.
Indeed, it is not something that we do.

this





Taigu

[aikoku tora]

Re: Naked Zen

I understand why a practitioner in Japan chants in Japanese, but why should a person in Spokane, who most likely wouldn't understand a word of it, chant in Japanese?
*****************
Has there ever been an attempt to strip down zen to its acultural core? To create a truly Western Zen?

being from Spokane I thought it would be fun to vouch for a little known gem about the city... this city actually has a very large population from japan, and we celebrate many Japanese festivals to honour our very close and active sister city; Nishinomiya, ( our city hall even has a several hundred year old Imperial Kimono owned by one of the cities daughters that married into the imperial family as a major display). We even have a week dedicated to that culture every year around golden week, so out here it's alittle different than I even expected....I actually invite anyone to visit the city then, there are many many wonderful events, and the local Shin Temple gets some wonderful speakers from all corners of the Buddhist world, be it japan, china, Tibetan, etc to come and give lectures, and other various things.

and the little hanamatsuri ( cherry blossom festival) at the Nishinomiya Tsutakawa Japanese Garden is just beautiful and a wonderful way to spend the day " they have lovely rock outcrops by one of the waterfalls just perfect to sit for hours.

On the whole note, I can understand what your getting at...I personally have not really felt it personally as I was pretty much raised into both cultures growing up...so I don't really see a separation culture, you can find me in a yukata/hakama combo, just as often as you will find me in a Vest and Kilt. That aside I find that chanting in japanese sometimes helps with the mindset, or demeanor...I personally can understand it, but Im always aware that those sitting with us at floating leaf may not, so most chants are in english. but the way I look at it...doing it in japanese, or in english really is all the same..however I find some of the chants " flow" better in their original form.

I do admit though that I look for ways to " adapt" certain things into a more western way of thinking....while not really altering them, I try to atleast make them easier to relate to...certain key elements from various Buddhist holidays can be adopted, and adapted to fit the west, but still retain it's initial intent.

in the end....Zen is Zen.....I'm sure the Shaolin felt a little thrown off a little when Bodhidharma came up from India to introduce Zen to them...and he himself may have felt curious for a moment or two on how best to introduce, and establish something of one culture, and make it natural feeling to another..

I see it that Zen is natural..the only thing that really see's the cultural boundaries of it, are the individual people...however sometimes it's that boundary that may help others better take in what they are learning, and later adapt it to fit their personal lives better.

[AlanLa]

Re: Naked Zen

I have been to Spokane a couple times. Although I did not experience all the wonderful things mentioned above, I found it to be a very nice city (not that anything different was ever implied by anyone).

As to the chanting in Japanese, I equate it to poetry, which is always better in its original form. Language is SO much more than words, and translated words always lose something, some essence, in that translation. Even though I may never fully and completely understand the essence of the Japanese words I chant, that is no reason not to chant them while understanding the essence of their English translation. Ultimately, the essence is up to the practice, not the words associated with the practice.

Zen language is its own language and seems to require its own translation, which does get frustrating. Too often I/we/whoever get lost in the words/language/translation, but don't they all point at the moon?

[Shohei]

Re: Naked Zen

I have been to Spokane a couple times. Although I did not experience all the wonderful things mentioned above, I found it to be a very nice city (not that anything different was ever implied by anyone).

As to the chanting in Japanese, I equate it to poetry, which is always better in its original form. Language is SO much more than words, and translated words always lose something, some essence, in that translation. Even though I may never fully and completely understand the essence of the Japanese words I chant, that is no reason not to chant them while understanding the essence of their English translation. Ultimately, the essence is up to the practice, not the words associated with the practice.

Zen language is its own language and seems to require its own translation, which does get frustrating. Too often I/we/whoever get lost in the words/language/translation, but don't they all point at the moon?

Hi Alan's response prompted me to reply so its his fault your all reading this :P

First off, English is my native tongue and im rather uneducated in the language department. So English is convenient (for me). Chanting in any language is fine by me! i privately at home chant in both english and Japanese, I sometimes let my daughter choose. She really has no clue what were talking about but she digs the "Beat" as we go and continues on chanting long after were done. She gets it! I still get tied up in trying to "read" the thing :P Anywho I really enjoyed Han's German Heart sutra... I probably would struggle to keep up or get it right but its sound was beautiful and the meaning was still banging around in my head in my own language.

As already said culturally there sure have been changes to zen Buddhism (hell Buddhism of any flavor) as it made its way and landed in North America (for me its best pass on saying east and west - we live on a big blue ball - east is west and north, south up down... we are all on the same chunk of dirt.) Change is inevitable. Personally, as Jundo has pointed out and others too, I try to embrace what i resist., picking up a spider to bowing to the toilet to trying not be so hard on myself and kinder to those around me. Yeah i have resisted being nice some days... to those that i thought slighted me
As all ready stated i think do what feels right for you but dont toss things out until you give em a fair shake. Well any way this topic has already had plenty of useful replies.

[snipped]Ultimately, the essence is up to the practice, not the words associated with the practice.

Zen language is its own language and seems to require its own translation, which does get frustrating. Too often I/we/whoever get lost in the words/language/translation, but don't they all point at the moon?

Now Alan, Really - Thank you for putting that out there!
Exactly what ive been bumping into lately. I want to say I'm missing something in the words i read and its experiencing directly or for myself what the words are pointing too.
I say I am frustrated with the words but its clear its my lack of patience. The only answer to my issue is to simply go experience it. practice. sit! (of course while still reading and trying to understand intellectually). Thank you

Gassho, Shohei

[AlanLa]

Re: Naked Zen

My "fault"? Oh, the essence of that word scared me! I was all prepared for needing to offer lots of bows and apologies. But I guess it's OK, whatever that word means, so just bows for nows.