Dogen's criticisms of other schools

[Bansho]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

Hi Al,

My point is it is not so much the practice as much as it is the result of the practice. If the point is only to chant or just to read the Bible or just to sit zazen, with no goodness outside of that, then not so fine. Is this what Dogen was criticizing, the result of those other practices? if so, then I (not that I matter) agree with him. Different paths up the same mountain, right?

No. Dogen Zenji didn't separate practice from the result of practice. Please don't take this as personal criticism, but it is precisely that kind of dualism which Dogen vehemently attacked, and which makes our Soto Zen practice very much different from some other Buddhist traditions. Although practice and result aren't one, neither are they two. While practice is practice and result is result, it is also the case that practice is result and result is practice. Just as our practice causes the result, so does the result cause our practice. They always appear simultaneously. We don't engage in Zazen in order to become wise and compassionate. The practice of Zazen is the direct manifestation of wisdom and compassion at that particular place and time. Whatever our practice may be, if we do it wholeheartedly, there can be no "goodness outside of that". We can never exhibit wisdom and compassion in the future, nor can we make up for lack of wisdom and compassion in the past. We can only do it here and now.

Sorry if this is redundant, because I think it kind of is, so no need to respond.

Not at all, understanding this is crucial to understanding our Practice - thank you very much for bringing it up, Al.

Gassho
Bansho

[will]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

Although practice and result aren't one, neither are they two. While practice is practice and result is result, it is also the case that practice is result and result is practice. Just as our practice causes the result, so does the result cause our practice. They always appear simultaneously.

Well said.

Gassho

[Taigu]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

Thank you for your teaching Bansho.

Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

. Dogen Zenji didn't separate practice from the result of practice. Please don't take this as personal criticism, but it is precisely that kind of dualism which Dogen vehemently attacked, and which makes our Soto Zen practice very much different from some other Buddhist traditions. Although practice and result aren't one, neither are they two. While practice is practice and result is result, it is also the case that practice is result and result is practice. Just as our practice causes the result, so does the result cause our practice. They always appear simultaneously. We don't engage in Zazen in order to become wise and compassionate. The practice of Zazen is the direct manifestation of wisdom and compassion at that particular place and time. Whatever our practice may be, if we do it wholeheartedly, there can be no "goodness outside of that". We can never exhibit wisdom and compassion in the future, nor can we make up for lack of wisdom and compassion in the past. We can only do it here and now.

All this is true ... yet, just to make clear, Dogen was never against our manifesting wisdom and compassion through this practice at times other than when we are sitting Zazen. Nor did he believe that no wisdom and compassion would result from Zazen that would carry forth into the rest of our day and lives.

And, though we seek no result, and though the practice is the practicing of the result, while the result is the resulting of the practice ... that does not mean that there are no results obtained from this practice.

Dropping all seeking of dualistic, distant results ... knowing that there is no "goodness outside of wholehearted practice" does not mean that no goodness comes out of that. A lot of goodness sure does come out of that.

Practice and result always appear simultaneously even when they appear hours or days apart. Otherwise, it makes it sound as if we are "wise, compassionate and good" only when sitting in the Lotus, cross legged on the floor ... and it all ends the moment we untangle the legs.

[disastermouse]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

We don't engage in Zazen in order to become wise and compassionate. The practice of Zazen is the direct manifestation of wisdom and compassion at that particular place and time. Whatever our practice may be, if we do it wholeheartedly, there can be no "goodness outside of that". We can never exhibit wisdom and compassion in the future, nor can we make up for lack of wisdom and compassion in the past. We can only do it here and now.

Indeed.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

Gassho

[disastermouse]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

Zazen has absolutely nothing to do with sitting or lying down. - Dogen

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

Zazen has absolutely nothing to do with sitting or lying down. - Dogen

Chet

Yes, everything is Zazen, but that does not mean that Zazen is everything ... or that seated Zazen meditation can be neglected (and Dogen often said specifically Zazen in the Lotus position, but I'm willing to bend the rules that much )

Then there is another type of person [who says,] "To pursue the way in seated meditation is a function essential for the "beginner's mind and the latter-day student", but it is not necessarily an observance of the buddhas and ancestors. 'Walking is Zen, sitting is Zen; whether in speech or silence, motion or rest, the substance is at ease.' Do not adhere solely to the present concentrated effort [of seated meditation]." ... It is because they are deficient in transmitting the right life of the buddha-dharma that they speak thus. What is the "beginner's mind"? Where is there no "beginner's mind"? Where do we leave the "beginner's mind"?

Be it known that, for studying the way, the established [means of] investigation is pursuing the way in seated meditation.

From: Zazenshin: ???. Lancet of Zazen (Bielefeldt)
http://hcbss.stanford.edu/research/proj ... nshin.html

Hee-Jin Kim has a good section on this, and Dogen's view on the primacy of seated Zazen practice over all other Buddhist practices. Read from the middle of page 59 here for a couple of pages ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=j0byXF ... 0#PPA60,M1

Dogen talks with forked tongue, out of both sides of his sideless mouth ...

So, Zazen is everything, but everything is not Zazen

We practice dropping all thought of obtaining results, thus results are obtained.

Enlightenment is Practice, Practice simply enlightement ... thus enlightenment is attained.

We are always working on several vantage points here, folks ... not two.

Gassho, J

[jrh001]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

...Hee Jin Kim essay on Dogen, Eihei Dogen mystical realist, might give you further insights into this pretty hot furnace of 13th century Japanese Buddhism and also give you a pretty fair picture of where Dogen comes from with his strong criticism.
So to cut a long story short, yes Dogen was a man of his time, today he would certainly do and write things differently ,and yes Dogen is also a man of the Dharma stressing the essential, coming back to the source...

Hi Taigu,

Two months on....

Many thanks for this suggestion. I've been reading Hee Jin Kim's book and it's been very helpful. It takes some effort to understand and I find myself going over and over certain sections (usually while on the train - another commuter!). Today I read about "binding one's self without a rope" and it struck a deep chord.

Thanks for your help.

gassho,

JohnH

[Taigu]

Re: Dogen's criticisms of other schools

Dear JohnH,

Glad you liked it. It is a great book and gives a very good picture ofthe man and the time.

Gassho


Taigu