Question about the Precept on intoxication and alcohol

[Antonio]

Please may you clarify more about selling alcohol? In any case is a infringement of this precept?

For example:

I have an online store with a partner that is not a buddhist. This store sells some exclusive wines, to be served with foods . Once the company is not just mine and I cannot forbid my partner to sell alcohol, I am trapped in a tricky situation. In this case, what could I do to not infringe this precept?

[Bion]

Hi, Antonio! I hope you don't mind, I gave your question a home of its own in a new thread, here in our Zen Practice sub-forum, to make sure it gets all the attention. The thread you found the topic in is from our past Precept Study in preparation for Jukai.
Just to help with context, our ceremony words this Precept as:

¨To seek as you can, in this body and life, to refrain from intoxication in its many forms.¨

gassho
sat and lah

[Antonio]

Thank you!

[Bion]

Thank you!

I am sure you’ll get some great responses here. We always go in depth with studying the Precepts here
Thanks for starting the discussion.

Gassho
Sat and lah

[Jundo]

Please may you clarify more about selling alcohol? In any case is a infringement of this precept?

For example:

I have an online store with a partner that is not a buddhist. This store sells some exclusive wines, to be served with foods . Once the company is not just mine and I cannot forbid my partner to sell alcohol, I am trapped in a tricky situation. In this case, what could I do to not infringe this precept?

Hi Antonio,

The Precept quite literally reads, in one traditional way of writing it, "not to deal in alcohol" (不酤酒戒) with the Kanji 酤 meaning "to deal in alcohol." https://www2.buddhistdoor.net/dictio...ails/%E9%85%A4

In the Mahayana, and especially in very earthy Japan, this is often given a less rigid or literal meaning. As was pointed out by some of the links above, in modern Zen teachings, this is often interpreted as not become hooked, or hooking others, on excess intoxicants of all sorts ... from alcohol to food to sex to video games or mall purchases. In Japan, I have been to several official Soto-shu parties, including New Years parties at Sojiji Head Temple with the Abbot and senior monks in attendance, where beer and Sake were served ...

... but the principle is supposed to be "moderation."

Of course, if someone is an alcoholic or other addict, then in such case, "moderation" means that even one drop is poison. As well, one should not drink during practice (please do not drink while operating a car or a Zafu! ) But if there are no addiction issues, then some light consumption of alcohol is tolerated widely in Japanese Buddhism.

I once went to a Bon Dance in Japan where some Sri Lankan Buddhist monks came to visit. The Japanese parishioners could not understand why the Sri Lankan monks refused their offer of a beer and to dance! One old grandma told me that she thought the Sri Lankans to be "strange Buddhists" for that reason.

I would say that, from what you describe, you are not selling whiskey to obviously intoxicated or addicted persons. That would be more of a problem. You are selling fine wines. I don't feel, personally, that you have to be so literal about this precept, and it is fine. In fact, if you wish, you can do what South Asian monks do about handling money: They cannot handle money themselves, so they get a lay person to carry their wallets for them. Technically, have your partner handle the wines. You do the other things. We have had this come up too for some of our members who are restaurant staff in restaurants serving alcohol.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Jundo]

PS - Oh, and do you know the "Bozu Bar" in Tokyo? ("Bozu" means "Monk" in Japanese, but also sounds like "Vows") ... There is at least one Soto Zen monk who helps run the place, with other priests from mostly Pure Land traditions.

The philosophy of the very serious Buddhist priests there is that a Bodhisattva must journey to hell to meet the suffering beings, and they mix cocktails with serious sermons and chanting ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBQvdUI0-eQ

[Antonio]

Thank you sensei and thank you all for the clarification. I really appreciate!

PS. I don’t drink but I now I must go to Japan to try the Bozu Bar

[mnstucky]

Thank you for the question and the discussion.
Gassho, Matt
Sat/Lah

[Tai Shi]

In response here, I'd like to offer this as something to ponder - it's from Tenshin Reb Anderson, a Soto Zen Teacher in California:

A disciple of buddha does not intoxicate mind or body of self or
others. If we look for the advantage of one thing over another,
anything may be an opportunity for intoxication. If taken in the
right way, alcohol may be helpful. It all depends on our basic
attitude. Suzuki Roshi emphasized that this precept warns against
intoxicating people with spiritual teachings. It encourages us to
acknowledge all dependencies and selfish manipulations, even of
Buddhaʼs teachings.

Also, here's a (paywalled) article from Tricycle, on this precept:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/non-use-intoxicants/

In this article, the author writes:

"We might agree that we get intoxicated by many different things, but surely we don’t sell or give intoxicants to others. Oh yes, we do! We sell intoxicants all the time. We react. We blame. We manipulate. We seduce. We play it safe. We lie, steal, kill, and invite others to join us in speaking ill of a third person. Just look at something like joking as a way to avoid true contact. We are constantly inviting others into our barrel of heroin. We want others to be as untruthful as we are. Connected with this is another very important kind of intoxication: feeding our narcissism."

I hope these may be good "food for thought," or perhaps better said, "sit with it."

Gassho,

Michael

Sat/Lah

intoxicated and ennobling are two different things. People can drink table wine or speciality wine as people do in Europe as long as they don’t get intoxicated. This may not apply to the alcoholic.
Gassho
sat/lah


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[Tom A.]

Question about the Precept on intoxication and alcohol

This may or may not be helpful:

https://www.reddit.com/r/zenbuddhism/comments/111r7n6/making_endless_bodhisattva_vows/

Maybe: I vow to keep myself and loved ones responsible and sober, even as I have the less than ideal job of selling alcohol and with the understanding that people make their own decisions.

Gassho,
Tom

SatLah


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