Buddhas

[will]

A bit of a long post today:

Why do all those monks walk around bowing and chanting?

Why did Suzuki Roshi emphasize religion?

You see, when we drop all the guessing games, and realize a taste for something bigger than ourselves through out our body and mind, what do you do?

Do you think that you will become radiant with wisdom on your own? This practice was not meant to be done by oneself. What happens when you think that you can realize Buddhadharma on your own? You become isolated. You mistake the teachings for some personal idea.

It is not personal. The precepts are important part of practice. When we have a taste for emptiness, or realize that we are part of something bigger, we then have no choice. We must use this Body and Mind for good.

What use is the Dharma if you are going to keep it to yourself. It is not that one should try hard to uphold something, but it is important to realize that one's actions do effect one's experience.

I have no clue what someone may have realized. Perhaps they don't need to sit Zazen and they carry Zazen with them wherever they go. However, for us mortals it is a bit different in that Zazen is part of what we are after. It is a practice that sets the body and mind right. From this practice we go about our day, and perhaps realize how giving thanks is intertwined. Enjoying yourself, being kind, not holding yourself back. Being perfectly you. However, this perfectly you needs some direction.

What's left after experiencing Buddha nature? The expression of it. The thankfulness of it. The importance of it and how it is integral to living this life well.

What would happen if one stops sitting Zazen (on the bus or cushion)? We will be led down the same road that we've always been. Suffering. What does this "suffereing" mean? It means being greedy, and selfish. It means taking things too seriously. It means causing yourself and other so much trouble. However, one can not end suffering by just following the precepts and avoiding what one "thinks" is wrong. One must realize what suffering is through BodyMind, and experience. How does mind react to slouching, and overeating? How does it react to craving? What is craving? How does it arise? What is it that make one think they are not fine they way they are? Finding balance. Dropping. Studying the self.

Here's an experience that somehow started and I don't know when or how:

The forum. Posting on the forum.
I would over think what I had posted on the forum. What I said, how it would be taken. "Should I change it?" All these overwhelming thoughts that followed me through out the day. would do that not only with the forum, but with my classes that I taught, and anything else that might come up. Holding on to my views and opinion, which would change from moment to moment. I dreaded shopping (which at the time was mostly craving.) Thinking about what I would by, and when I would get home, and everything was JUST OUT OF SYNC. I would become flustered, and agitated. Sometimes I would be very curt, and testy with people. I would raise my voice, and so on. Somehow through practice, and studying the self, I started to notice how I cling to thought, and just couldn't let it go. Somehow I just started to let it go. I would post something on the forum, and forget about it (move on) learning to drop. It really took out a lot of trouble that I had previously had in my life. How did that happen? My only answer is practice. Sitting Zazen, and studying the self, which you may find helps to drop the self.

What you did is what you did. There is nothing that can take that back. The only thing that you can do is practice. Not to become better. To become balanced and more whole, and learn from our mistakes. Do we stop practicing and sitting Zazen? I can't say, but my guess is "no".

Ok I should sit now.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhas

A wonderful post, Will. Thank you.

Rings true as a wonderful "non-plan" for Practice and living life . Getting no place, and a great way to get there. As you say, "Not to become better. To become balanced and more whole, and learn from our mistakes. Do we stop practicing and sitting Zazen? I can't say, but my guess is "no"."

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhas

Zazen can become, like all things, appropriated by the ego and used against the shadow of ourselves that we wish to deny. It's the same with the precepts. It's the same with anything.

Nonetheless, zazen is the most effective means by which I've ever experienced to study or forget the self.

That quote I posted in the Adyashanti thread (the most recent quote) haunts me. Why, with so many practicing with so much earnest effort, do so few awaken?

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhas

That quote I posted in the Adyashanti thread (the most recent quote) haunts me. Why, with so many practicing with so much earnest effort, do so few awaken?

Chet

I do not know anyone who's been following this path for many years, and sitting each day ... who has not tasted that which keeps them following this path for many years and sitting each day.

If they had not found what makes that so, they would not be so ... day in day out, for so many years of Practice.

'Tis a hike up a mountain. Almost anyone following the path for some time will come to realize that there is no place in need of getting to, that the mountain is always underfoot ... and, anyway, that there is no mountain, or path, or walker, but just the walking ... maybe not even that. Once in awhile, most will catch a glimpse through the trees, or reach a summit, where there is an amazing panorama ... or by which all drops away in all directions. Almost anyone walking this mountain, day in day out for several years, will experience just that.

The wise ones will realize too that such scenery, though breathtaking, is not the real point of the walk. You will know them because of the way they walk ... no longer searching, merely walking forward ... step by step for many thousands of miles, sometimes smooth sometimes tripping, always arriving.

So, I do not think that what you write is true.

(Other folks, by the way, may need some other religious path to help them make sense of this world ... be it a god or savior or Buddha to pray to. Our path is not for everyone).


Gassho, Jundo

PS - Be cautious of anyone who says "too few awaken" unless you follow his path. That's like a guide who, for a fee, offers to run you up to the mountain scenic spots in a jeep, all to find a store selling souvenir trinkets. :wink: The truth is that those folks who will awaken will do so, and on many paths.

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhas

How many evangelical Christians awaken? Would someone need to be wary of me for pointing out that it's most likely very few?

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhas

How many evangelical Christians awaken? Would someone need to be wary of me for pointing out that it's most likely very few?

Chet

Well, that may be like comparing football and baseball. In fact, they may "awaken" in their own way, appropriate for them ... I do not know or wish to say.

I was just talking about the use of the word "awaken" in the little corner of religion with which I am involved.

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhas

Do you think it's problematic to try to continue to improve the methods whereby people realize truth?

Chet

[Bansho]

Re: Buddhas

Hi,

How many evangelical Christians awaken? Would someone need to be wary of me for pointing out that it's most likely very few?

Chet

Well, that may be like comparing football and baseball. In fact, they may "awaken" in their own way, appropriate for them ... I do not know or wish to say.

I was just talking about the use of the word "awaken" in the little corner of religion with which I am involved.

Gassho, J

That's just the question, isn't it: what does one awaken to?

If we cultivate the practice of the Buddha-Dharma, we will surely awaken to the existence of a Buddhist practitioner.

Likewise, if we cultivate the practice of injecting heroin into our veins, we will surely awaken to the existence of a heroin junkie.

It's our responsibility to decide what we want to do with our lives and to what we wish to awaken to. There's no escaping this and no one else can do it for us.

Kukkuravatika Sutta[/i]":2xk8ut4w]Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Koliyan country: there is a town of the Koliyans called Haliddavasana.

Then Punna, a son of the Koliyans and an ox-duty ascetic, and also Seniya a naked dog duty ascetic, went to the Blessed One, and Punna the ox duty ascetic paid homage to the Blessed One and sat down at one side, while Seniya the naked dog-duty ascetic exchanged greetings with the Blessed One, and when the courteous and amiable talk was finished, he too sat down at one side curled up like a dog. When Punna the ox-duty ascetic sat down, he asked the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

"Enough, Punna, let that be. Do not ask me that."

A second time... A third time Punna the ox-duty ascetic asked the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

"Well, Punna, since I certainly cannot persuade you when I say 'Enough, Punna, let that be. Do not ask me that,' I shall therefore answer you.

"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....057.nymo.html

It's not necessary to interpret the portion regarding Punna's reappearance after death literally to understand the point of this discourse. If we "develop dog behavior fully and unstintingly", we don't have to wait. We will awaken to that very dog-existence - here and now.

Gassho
Bansho

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhas

Hi,

How many evangelical Christians awaken? Would someone need to be wary of me for pointing out that it's most likely very few?

Chet

Well, that may be like comparing football and baseball. In fact, they may "awaken" in their own way, appropriate for them ... I do not know or wish to say.

I was just talking about the use of the word "awaken" in the little corner of religion with which I am involved.

Gassho, J

That's just the question, isn't it: what does one awaken to?

If we cultivate the practice of the Buddha-Dharma, we will surely awaken to the existence of a Buddhist practitioner.

Likewise, if we cultivate the practice of injecting heroin into our veins, we will surely awaken to the existence of a heroin junkie.

It's our responsibility to decide what we want to do with our lives and to what we wish to awaken to. There's no escaping this and no one else can do it for us.

Kukkuravatika Sutta[/i]":27wxyt4y]Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Koliyan country: there is a town of the Koliyans called Haliddavasana.

Then Punna, a son of the Koliyans and an ox-duty ascetic, and also Seniya a naked dog duty ascetic, went to the Blessed One, and Punna the ox duty ascetic paid homage to the Blessed One and sat down at one side, while Seniya the naked dog-duty ascetic exchanged greetings with the Blessed One, and when the courteous and amiable talk was finished, he too sat down at one side curled up like a dog. When Punna the ox-duty ascetic sat down, he asked the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

"Enough, Punna, let that be. Do not ask me that."

A second time... A third time Punna the ox-duty ascetic asked the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

"Well, Punna, since I certainly cannot persuade you when I say 'Enough, Punna, let that be. Do not ask me that,' I shall therefore answer you.

"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....057.nymo.html

It's not necessary to interpret the portion regarding Punna's reappearance after death literally to understand the point of this discourse. If we "develop dog behavior fully and unstintingly", we don't have to wait. We will awaken to that very dog-existence - here and now.

Gassho
Bansho

Is it not more important to wake up to reality than to awaken to the reality only of a Buddhist practitioner? To only wake up to the reality of being a Buddhist practitioner is to wake up the state of being a shackled slave. The purpose of Buddhist practice is not to develop perfection as a Buddhist practitioner.

It is to awaken to reality, which is not fundamentally 'Buddhist' in any way.

Chet

Chet

[CharlesC]

Re: Buddhas

Is it not more important to wake up to reality than to awaken to the reality only of a Buddhist practitioner? To only wake up to the reality of being a Buddhist practitioner is to wake up the state of being a shackled slave. The purpose of Buddhist practice is not to develop perfection as a Buddhist practitioner.

It is to awaken to reality, which is not fundamentally 'Buddhist' in any way.

Maybe there is no reality other than the way we lead our lives. It's just that some ways work better than others.

:Charles

[Bansho]

Re: Buddhas

Hi Chet,

Is it not more important to wake up to reality than to awaken to the reality only of a Buddhist practitioner? To only wake up to the reality of being a Buddhist practitioner is to wake up the state of being a shackled slave. The purpose of Buddhist practice is not to develop perfection as a Buddhist practitioner.

It is to awaken to reality, which is not fundamentally 'Buddhist' in any way.

We always awaken to a reality of... something. Thinking otherwise is delusion. There is no 'independent' or 'objective' reality which exists apart from this which we can experience. This is what Dogen Zenji means when he says the following:

Genjo Koan[/i]":27wg5unm]When we use the whole body and mind to look at forms, and when we use the whole body and mind to listen to sounds, even though we are sensing them directly, it is not like a mirror’s reflection of an image, and not like water and the moon. While we are experiencing one side, we are blind to the other side. [My emphasis.]
-- Nishijima & Cross

That is the human condition and that is why our Zen ancestors are so adamant in telling us to stop seeking. There is no reality to be found apart from... this.

Gassho
Bansho

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhas

Hi Chet,

Is it not more important to wake up to reality than to awaken to the reality only of a Buddhist practitioner? To only wake up to the reality of being a Buddhist practitioner is to wake up the state of being a shackled slave. The purpose of Buddhist practice is not to develop perfection as a Buddhist practitioner.

It is to awaken to reality, which is not fundamentally 'Buddhist' in any way.

We always awaken to a reality of... something. There is no 'independent' or 'objective' reality which exists apart from this which we can experience. This is what Dogen Zenji means when he says the following:

Genjo Koan[/i]":e4y346yt]When we use the whole body and mind to look at forms, and when we use the whole body and mind to listen to sounds, even though we are sensing them directly, it is not like a mirror’s reflection of an image, and not like water and the moon. While we are experiencing one side, we are blind to the other side. [My emphasis.]
-- Nishijima & Cross

Gassho
Bansho

If you keep talking like this, the pretty soon we'll be talking about 'your' truth and 'my' truth - and at that point, we might as well not talk at all.

If you really think Dogen was being literal when he said 'two sides', well, I think you're still filtering your experience through thought.


Everyone goes crazy with Nagarjuna's 'two realities' doctrine, but the reality of the matter is, there are not really two realities! One can approach from either of these two sides conceptually, but neither of these 'two sides' exists. If Dogen was adamantly claiming any 'reality' to either of these 'two sides' (dude, the duality is right there!), then he is, in fact, an idiot.

I do not think Dogen was an idiot.

Even when listening 'with the whole body', the mind leaps forward to greet the bodily sensations and in so doing constructs a conception! In reality, there are no 'gaps' - nothing to sense 'directly' or otherwise - and no one to sense it.

That is the human condition and that is why our Zen ancestors are so adamant in telling us to stop seeking. There is no reality to be found apart from... this.

You mistake resignation with realization! You really think this? Really?


IMHO, IANAT

Chet

[Bansho]

Re: Buddhas

Hi Chet,

If you keep talking like this, the pretty soon we'll be talking about 'your' truth and 'my' truth - and at that point, we might as well not talk at all.

Well, I certainly hope it doesn't come to that. I enjoy talking with you.

If you really think Dogen was being literal when he said 'two sides', well, I think you're still filtering your experience through thought.

Everyone goes crazy with Nagarjuna's 'two realities' doctrine, but the reality of the matter is, there are not really two realities! One can approach from either of these two sides conceptually, but neither of these 'two sides' exists. If Dogen was adamantly claiming any 'reality' to either of these 'two sides' (dude, the duality is right there!), then he is, in fact, an idiot.

I do not think Dogen was an idiot.

Neither do I, Chet. Which is why I think that he sincerely means what he says here. To stay in keeping with your reference to the Madhyamika doctrine of 'two realities': Dogen isn't contrasting conventional (Skt. samvrti) with absolute (Skt. paramartha) reality here. The 'sides' he's referring to here are both samvrti. However, each 'side' is, at the same time, an expression of ultimate reality, paramartha. This is why, as you correctly say, there are utimately no two realities. Both 'sides' are equivalent in their emptiness and, as such, are manifestations of ultimate reality, both are affirmed and neither is given preference over the other. This is why we needn't seek.

That is the human condition and that is why our Zen ancestors are so adamant in telling us to stop seeking. There is no reality to be found apart from... this.

You mistake resignation with realization! You really think this? Really?

Oh, quite the contrary. It's far from being resignation. It's neither chasing, nor running away. It's fully abiding in 'this' reality - which is ultimately no different, and certainly no better than - 'that' reality. We immerse ourselves in practice just where we are.

Gassho
Bansho

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhas

Hi Chet,

If you keep talking like this, the pretty soon we'll be talking about 'your' truth and 'my' truth - and at that point, we might as well not talk at all.

Well, I certainly hope it doesn't come to that. I enjoy talking with you.

If you really think Dogen was being literal when he said 'two sides', well, I think you're still filtering your experience through thought.

Everyone goes crazy with Nagarjuna's 'two realities' doctrine, but the reality of the matter is, there are not really two realities! One can approach from either of these two sides conceptually, but neither of these 'two sides' exists. If Dogen was adamantly claiming any 'reality' to either of these 'two sides' (dude, the duality is right there!), then he is, in fact, an idiot.

I do not think Dogen was an idiot.

Neither do I, Chet. Which is why I think that he sincerely means what he says here. To stay in keeping with your reference to the Madhyamika doctrine of 'two realities': Dogen isn't contrasting conventional (Skt. samvrti) with absolute (Skt. paramartha) reality here. The 'sides' he's referring to here are both samvrti. However, each 'side' is, at the same time, an expression of ultimate reality, paramartha. This is why, as you correctly say, there are utimately no two realities. Both 'sides' are equivalent in their emptiness and, as such, are manifestations of ultimate reality, both are affirmed and neither is given preference over the other. This is why we needn't seek.

Ah! Both illusion. Equally empty. I see. As long as you must at some point conceive - better to realize that your conceptions are empty. Is that what you're driving at?

That is the human condition and that is why our Zen ancestors are so adamant in telling us to stop seeking. There is no reality to be found apart from... this.

You mistake resignation with realization! You really think this? Really?

Oh, quite the contrary. It's far from being resignation. It's neither chasing, nor running away. It's fully abiding in 'this' reality - which is ultimately no different, and certainly no better than - 'that' reality. We immerse ourselves in practice just where we are.

Gassho
Bansho

Indeed.

Gassho

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhas

Bansho, thank you for a very elegant presentation.

I sometimes present Dogen as a jazz musician, and our practice as hearing and playing jazz music. The "Truth" of the music is not to demand silence or a single harmonious tone, but is actually each note as a wonderful expression of Truth ... note by note, one by one and in groups, in all its syncopation and freedom. In such case, note and silence (the spaces between the notes) are not two ... ... each note is Truth, all the space between the notes is Truth, note-silence-note not even distinguishable as separate ... one great composition, the silence now music, the Truth of which is realized in the very playing!

The Harmony is to be discovered in-&-as the very harmonies and disharmonies, cause silence alone is just empty and silent ... a dark stage. The music -is- the Truth!

While the music is a kind of illusion, a dream within a dream, it is thus as real as real can be ... real hot jazz, vibrant sound, alive! Can you dig that sound?

Some folks opine that only the "Silence", or the "Single Harmonious Tone" or "One Original Key" is Truth ... and the point of what we are seeking (but that's kinda dull to me!). They say the noise of the band gets in the way of Truth. Instead, I think Dogen is telling us to stop seeking ... and just LISTEN and PLAY with our whole body and mind ... body and mind dropped away. If you can't dig it in the sound, you will not find it in the silence.

Anyway, I don't think that I am making this set any better by sitting in.

Bansho, you take this solo.

Gassho, Jundo