How the Precepts destroyed my life!

[chicanobudista]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

You think the precepts are restrictive? Try being a Muslim female. Damnnnn.

Well. It could be said of any "conservative" or "orthodox" religious view be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. Just try to follow the Kosher dietary laws in a non-Jewish community or being a Christian Evangelist in a liberal university town. : :wink:

[murasaki]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

Well. It could be said of any "conservative" or "orthodox" religious view be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. Just try to follow the Kosher dietary laws in a non-Jewish community or being a Christian Evangelist in a liberal university town. : :wink:

That sounds plausible on the surface...but I must insist that the Muslim female role beats both of those in the subjugation department, hands down. And I'm not just giving an offhanded opinion based on hearsay. But that's all I'm going to say about it, so I ask you kindly to take my word for it, with sincere apologies for my curtness.

gassho

[disastermouse]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

You think the precepts are restrictive? Try being a Muslim female. Damnnnn. You'll be begging to return to the precepts. They'll feel like a coke party in the Hamptons. Oh well, the grass is always greener, innit.

gassho
Julia

I think you missed the point of my post. It's not that the precepts are too restrictive, it's that the neurotic mind finds ways to misuse them.

Luckily, we have teachers (who aren't rocks or mountains).

Chet

[chicanobudista]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

That sounds plausible on the surface...but I must insist that the Muslim female role beats both of those in the subjugation department, hands down. And I'm not just giving an offhanded opinion based on hearsay. But that's all I'm going to say about it, so I ask you kindly to take my word for it, with sincere apologies for my curtness.

gassho

My father used to say that some folks talk about that there are different levels of poverty. He said in the end poverty is poverty. Who is more subjugated is really not the issue. Subjugation is the issue.

As far as your word, it's your opinion and I'll respect it as much I hope you understand my opinion. N'est–ce pas? :wink:

[Jundo]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

Well. It could be said of any "conservative" or "orthodox" religious view be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. Just try to follow the Kosher dietary laws in a non-Jewish community or being a Christian Evangelist in a liberal university town. : :wink:

That sounds plausible on the surface...but I must insist that the Muslim female role beats both of those in the subjugation department, hands down. And I'm not just giving an offhanded opinion based on hearsay. But that's all I'm going to say about it, so I ask you kindly to take my word for it, with sincere apologies for my curtness.

gassho

Buddhist cultures have also varied greatly in both the rigidity of the Precepts and their view of the punishments for our "bad" volitional actions (complete with visions of Heavens and Hells for infractions), and in the treatment of women too.

So, do not think that the opinion ofa westernized, liberal, sometimes meat eating, lightly wine drinking, and married "monk" like me (and perhaps the majority of the other teachers in both Japan and the west) represents the entire Buddhist world.

There may be a natural human condition that divides people into those who require a flexible view of ethical rules, and those require great detail and rigidity. I am not saying that one way is better than the other, and both need to be handled with care. But it is something found in all religions, without exception ... there are folks who need more "structure" and "black/white" than other folks.

Although the rules were always much much more detailed and demanding for ordained men and women (more rules for women in fact) than for lay people, much of the Buddhist world views the Japanese view of the Precepts ... and the even more "modern" view in Western countries ... as just short of an orgy! In Japan, over time, the Precepts came to be interpreted in a way much more "down to earth", until in the 19th century Zen priests were allowed to marry (first it was actually an attempt by the Japanese government to weaken the clergy by forcing them to marry ... but the monks liked it! Now most Japanese clergy I know, of all schools, eat some fish or meat, drink a bit of Sake, marry. I think it actually a breath of fresh air ... though most of the rest of the Buddhist world is horrified by the "libertine" Japanese clergy!)

(For those who have never seen the detailed Vinaya rules for Buddhist clergy ... look here)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... index.html

And women were always treated as, well, second class citizens ... Here are some of the Buddha's original rules for women ...

Further, according to the canonical texts, before the Buddha allowed Pajapati into the Sangha, she had to agree to eight Garudhammas, or grave rules, not required of men. These are:

* A Bhikkuni (nun) even if she was in the Order for 100 years must respect a Bhikkhu (monk) even of a day's standing.
...
* On Observance days a Bhikkhuni should consult the Bhikkhus.
...
* A Bhikkhuni cannot scold a Bhikkhu.
* A Bhikkhuni cannot advise a Bhikkhu.

Nuns also have more rules to follow than monks. The Vinaya-pitaka lists about 250 rules for monks and 348 rules for nuns.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhisthi ... twomen.htm

It was no better in the world of Zen Buddhism until very recently ... and, even today, not really "equal" in Japan at least (in American and Europe, perhaps there are now more women teachers and Sangha members than men teachers and members!)

Now, of course, a lot of this is just cultural. India, Thailand, Japan, China, Korea, etc., are just conservative countries, often infused with conservative Confusian family values ... the Buddha and old Buddhists just went with the culture.

I happen to think that the more modern interpretations of the Precepts, the status of women, the role of lay people etc. is a great IMPROVEMENT in Buddhism. We are more about being in the world (while seeing through the world), and about equality.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Some cool ... and very hot ... Buddhist hells are described here. Interesting reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Buddhism)

I often wondered if Buddhists go to Christian hell for not believing in Jesus, while Christians go to Buddhist hell for not believing in Buddha. Kind of a Koan. 8)

[murasaki]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

You think the precepts are restrictive? Try being a Muslim female. Damnnnn. You'll be begging to return to the precepts. They'll feel like a coke party in the Hamptons. Oh well, the grass is always greener, innit.

gassho
Julia

I think you missed the point of my post. It's not that the precepts are too restrictive, it's that the neurotic mind finds ways to misuse them.

Luckily, we have teachers (who aren't rocks or mountains).

Chet

I'm glad you clarified that, because my initial impression was that you ran smack into a wall, and were then complaining about the evils of walls.
gassho,
Julia

[murasaki]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

That sounds plausible on the surface...but I must insist that the Muslim female role beats both of those in the subjugation department, hands down. And I'm not just giving an offhanded opinion based on hearsay. But that's all I'm going to say about it, so I ask you kindly to take my word for it, with sincere apologies for my curtness.

gassho

My father used to say that some folks talk about that there are different levels of poverty. He said in the end poverty is poverty. Who is more subjugated is really not the issue. Subjugation is the issue.

As far as your word, it's your opinion and I'll respect it as much I hope you understand my opinion. N'est–ce pas? :wink:

Claro que si! (Sorry I had to omit the accent marks and that initial upside-down exclamation point, I know they belong there :wink: )

My point in posting my two cents here was that I don't put much stock in people whining, "Look what such-and-such religion did to me," even if it seems like they have a legitimate excuse. It's pointless drama (although I acknowledge that people have to indulge in that in certain stages of emotional processing).

Yes, I dearly wish religion could never be misapplied by anyone, or used as a weapon to hurt another person. But you have to own the way you interacted with it, and what you allowed others to do to you with it, and move on. 'Nuff said.

gassho
Julia

[disastermouse]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

You think the precepts are restrictive? Try being a Muslim female. Damnnnn. You'll be begging to return to the precepts. They'll feel like a coke party in the Hamptons. Oh well, the grass is always greener, innit.

gassho
Julia

I think you missed the point of my post. It's not that the precepts are too restrictive, it's that the neurotic mind finds ways to misuse them.

Luckily, we have teachers (who aren't rocks or mountains).

Chet

I'm glad you clarified that, because my initial impression was that you ran smack into a wall, and were then complaining about the evils of walls.
gassho,
Julia

No, my headline was deliberately sensational.

Chet

[Tobiishi]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

My point in posting my two cents here was that I don't put much stock in people whining, "Look what such-and-such religion did to me," even if it seems like they have a legitimate excuse. It's pointless drama (although I acknowledge that people have to indulge in that in certain stages of emotional processing).

Yes, I dearly wish religion could never be misapplied by anyone, or used as a weapon to hurt another person. But you have to own the way you interacted with it, and what you allowed others to do to you with it, and move on. 'Nuff said.

Thanks Julia- You just smacked me up the back of the head, which I think I needed. (Picture Gibbs & DiNozo, for you NCIS fans )

gassho

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

Well. It could be said of any "conservative" or "orthodox" religious view be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. Just try to follow the Kosher dietary laws in a non-Jewish community or being a Christian Evangelist in a liberal university town. : :wink:

That sounds plausible on the surface...but I must insist that the Muslim female role beats both of those in the subjugation department, hands down. And I'm not just giving an offhanded opinion based on hearsay. But that's all I'm going to say about it, so I ask you kindly to take my word for it, with sincere apologies for my curtness.

gassho

I have to really strongly disagree. Women in ultra-conservative Charedi communities, especially in Israel (and especially in Jerusalem) often have a much more oppressive life than most women in, say, Turkey or Singapore. I don't want to discount your experiences but I can't let that assertion go unchallenged.

[disastermouse]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

Well. It could be said of any "conservative" or "orthodox" religious view be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. Just try to follow the Kosher dietary laws in a non-Jewish community or being a Christian Evangelist in a liberal university town. : :wink:

That sounds plausible on the surface...but I must insist that the Muslim female role beats both of those in the subjugation department, hands down. And I'm not just giving an offhanded opinion based on hearsay. But that's all I'm going to say about it, so I ask you kindly to take my word for it, with sincere apologies for my curtness.

gassho

I have to really strongly disagree. Women in ultra-conservative Charedi communities, especially in Israel (and especially in Jerusalem) often have a much more oppressive life than most women in, say, Turkey or Singapore. I don't want to discount your experiences but I can't let that assertion go unchallenged.

Some people would argue that the most oppressed woman in the world was my exgirlfriend. Most notably among those arguing that would probably be my exgirlfriend. She was so oppressed by my not being the person she wanted me to be.

Wait, no - the most oppressed woman in the world was my mother - who's put up with my crap for going on 35 years now.

No, wait...the most oppressed woman in the world is Will's mom!

Just kidding, Will.

Chet

[will]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

Ha- Ha - Ha :|

:wink:

W

[chicanobudista]

Re: How the Precepts destroyed my life!

Chet, at least the precepts don't ask you to wear a sheitel. :mrgreen: