Pushing away thoughts vs bringing your focus back to the present moment

[Douglas]

Hello all,

During Zazen, I often find myself wondering whether I'm pushing a thought away when I redirect my focus to my breath and the present moment. If you notice your mind wandering and then bring it back to your breath, is that not avoiding the thought that I noticed my mind wandering to?

thank you!

-sat today

[Bion]

Pushing away thoughts vs bringing your focus back to the present moment

Once the thought is there, you’ve already failed at avoiding it and noticing it simply means you’ve stopped engaging with it for enough time to catch yourself lost in it. So, at this point, the next step is an actual choice: go back to the thought and engage with it, or continue with zazen.

That is just my - probably insufficient - take on that process. But, take it please, as just another practitioner’s ideas, and not some teaching. This novice monk is clueless most of the time. ( thus the wall gazing ) Sorry for running a bit long.

Gassho
Sat and lah

[Houzan]

Pushing away thoughts vs bringing your focus back to the present moment

Bion said it so well[emoji120]
Having struggled with the same question for a while myself, my current approach, based on my simple understanding of the helpful guidance from this sangha, is this:
My zazen is perfectly fine as long as I remember that a thought about whether I push away thoughts is a thought itself, so just let go of this thought as well.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

[Jundo]

Don't overthink this question (pun intended)

The way not to be bothered by a thought is not to be bothered by a thought. Just let it be, neither running towards nor running away.

Do not try to be in the moment, do not try to redirect to the breath ... do not try, do not need to try or not try.

If wandering, just stop wandering and return to "not trying."

Cars pass on the mind's highway. Sit quietly at the side of the road as they pass, do not get in. If finding oneself getting in for a ride, just again be at the side of the road as they pass.

Shikantaza is counter-intuitive that way. One thinks one must do something when, all along, the doing or trying to stop doing, or need to do or to stop to do ... is the very problem.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Bion]

Do not try to be in the moment, do not try to redirect to the breath ... do not try, do not need to try or not try.

If wandering, just stop wandering and return to "not trying."

stlah

Thanks for that! I’ll try to remember it, cause it is really good!

Gassho
Sat and lah

[Seiko]

Hello all,

During Zazen, I often find myself wondering whether I'm pushing a thought away when I redirect my focus to my breath and the present moment. If you notice your mind wandering and then bring it back to your breath, is that not avoiding the thought that I noticed my mind wandering to?

thank you!

-sat today

Fukanzazenji is my "go to".

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Douglas]

Thank you for all of your suggestions. I do "get" what jundo is saying..well...if it can be "got". Words don't really work.

-Sat today

[Kaitan]

Shikantaza is counter-intuitive that way. One thinks one must do something when, all along, the doing or trying to stop doing, or need to do or to stop to do ... is the very problem.

Gasshō

stlah, Kaitan

[Jundo]

Don't overthink this question (pun intended)

The way not to be bothered by a thought is not to be bothered by a thought. Just let it be, neither running towards nor running away.

Do not try to be in the moment, do not try to redirect to the breath ... do not try, do not need to try or not try.

If wandering, just stop wandering and return to "not trying."

Cars pass on the mind's highway. Sit quietly at the side of the road as they pass, do not get in. If finding oneself getting in for a ride, just again be at the side of the road as they pass.

Shikantaza is counter-intuitive that way. One thinks one must do something when, all along, the doing or trying to stop doing, or need to do or to stop to do ... is the very problem.

Gassho, J

stlah

Suppose there is a plant in a vase in the corner room where you sit, visible out of the corner of your eye as you face the open wall in Zazen. It it fine. It does not require watering now, nor any tending. You may notice it now and then, and it is nice (or maybe not so nice and demands care later), but really no need to notice or ponder it right now. You might notice it is there now and then, which is fine, but then forget about it, ignore it much of the time, let it be during the time of sitting. If it requires watering or care, you can do that after sitting. Not now. It is lovely and there even without your attention to it now. Seen but not pondered, or ignored and not pondered ... all the same. Sometimes the plant completely drops from mind. Let your thoughts be like that plant.

If you think about the plant (think about your thoughts), and get tangled in thoughts about the plant (thoughts about your thoughts) ... that is your doing so, not the plant. The plant is not asking you to think about it. It is not asking you to judge it. The plant receives light, so needs nothing from you in fact.

There is not really anything to think about. It is just there, left alone. You see it, but do not think about it.

Now, pretend that the plant is your thoughts, present in the room of your mind. Let your passing thoughts be like the plant ... present, but nothing to think about. Likewise, your thoughts may be present in your mind, but your thoughts are nothing to think about or judge. Do not think about your thoughts, like you do not think about a plant that is in your room for years and requires no tending, moving, judging. I do not mean to blank out your mind so that there is no plant. I mean that your room is fine, open, bright, spacious whether there is a thought-plant or no thought-plant there.

No need to return to the breath in Shikantaza (although some do breath practice.) Just have your mind as the open, spacious room which allows all to be within it without judgement. Does the room think about the plant that is in it? In fact, the plant is the room, the room is the plant and all else contained. No need to "be in the present moment." Where else can one be? Does the room try to "be in the moment?" Just let the room be, the plant be ... no need to mentally ponder it, water it, move it, judge it ... just sit.

Do not try to think about the plant, do not try not to think about the plant ... just be the room and do not ponder the plant. Let the thoughts be, you will tend to them later.

Gassho, J

stlah

tsuku.jpg

[Furyu]

Ramine
Sat-lah

[Seijin]

Don't overthink this question (pun intended)

The way not to be bothered by a thought is not to be bothered by a thought. Just let it be, neither running towards nor running away.

Do not try to be in the moment, do not try to redirect to the breath ... do not try, do not need to try or not try.

If wandering, just stop wandering and return to "not trying."

Cars pass on the mind's highway. Sit quietly at the side of the road as they pass, do not get in. If finding oneself getting in for a ride, just again be at the side of the road as they pass.

Shikantaza is counter-intuitive that way. One thinks one must do something when, all along, the doing or trying to stop doing, or need to do or to stop to do ... is the very problem.

Gassho, J

stlah

Jundo hit the nail here, perfectly. I agree deeply. Our brain desire to think thougts its how we survived from getting killed back in the days, and if it finds a reson to argument for you to focus on the thought (passing car) then its got you attention-mission completed for the brain.

I attended a seminar this week at my psychotherapy course. A woman who had struggled all her life with recurrent psycosis was speaking about her experiences. In her story of how she struggled when beeing ill- many of the struggles were about trying find the ulimate truth about reality. Altough she was quite well now she was still longing to find this and thougt that if she was thinking of it enough it would appear. In a psycosis the brain can be extreemly active and makes connections between things that are not connected -for me its a paralell to how all our brains try to mkae sence of things that are not possible to make sense of- we just need to let them pass.
(I asked her if it was a possibility to just accept that it could be that we all have different realitys and that they constantly change as everything constanly changes.)

Seijin

[RobO]

A beginner myself, so please take this as such..

My thinking here, and experience has been that these "am I doing it right" thoughts during zazen are just more thoughts and can be treated as such. The feeling of doubt too, is only a feeling, and you can notice that (and then you have already disengaged).

I would say (though please correct me someone if I am wrong) coming to terms with the doubt and uncertainty is a part of it, the thinking mind wants to be in the driving seat, and for me anyway, these kinds of sneaky thoughts have taken a LOT of my zazen time.

If I see I am caught in a thought, and "push it away" and get back to zazen, ok. If I see I am caught in a thought and don't do anything, fantastic (thats enough to get me back to zazen). If I don't even engage with the thought and it floats by, perfect.

But if I get caught up in thinking about whether I "didnt do it the right way", "engaged in action", "is there a better way to do it?", "should I post a question..." and so on, my mind trying to solve it, that's a huge amount of extra thoughts added to the mix (this is how thoughts sneakily grab me). Even if I notice and do it imperfectly, it's still way better than getting sucked into a dialogue about zazen during zazen! (there is nothing "wrong" with that either).

Sorry, ran very long, and hopefully none of this is too far off the mark!

Gassho, Rob
Sat / lah

[Jundo]

I would say (though please correct me someone if I am wrong) coming to terms with the doubt and uncertainty is a part of it, the thinking mind wants to be in the driving seat, and for me anyway, these kinds of sneaky thoughts have taken a LOT of my zazen time.

This is why Zazen should be sat always with a trust, subtle yet deep in the bones, that Zazen is always a complete and self-fulfilling act, nothing lacking, nothing to add, always good. Zazen is a Buddha sitting in one's own sitting.

It is the opposite of our always judging mind, which strives for improvement, criticizes and feels lack.

You will find more about that here:

WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS

Gassho, J

stlah

[Kaitan]

I just recalled an episode of the podcast by Domyo Burk. It's from the past July 17, 2023. https://open.spotify.com/episode/5Hf...Q_KHYqCXS7Sbeg

Zazen as a religious act.

I often forget that sitting zazen is the equivalent to prayer, so recognizing sitting zazen as a holy act to connect with the universe and as a ritual definitely makes it easier and motivates me. It also helps me to overcome the "bad" sits and accept them as much as the "good" sits. I know this tradition tends to be more secular, but I find important for my practice to not lose track of the direction.

Gasshō

stlah, Kaitan

[RobO]

This is why Zazen should be sat always with a trust, subtle yet deep in the bones, that Zazen is always a complete and self-fulfilling act, nothing lacking, nothing to add, always good. Zazen is a Buddha sitting in one's own sitting.

It is the opposite of our always judging mind, which strives for improvement, criticizes and feels lack.

You will find more about that here:

WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS

Gassho, J

stlah

Thank you Jundo 🙏

Gassho, Rob
Sat/lah