Teachers

[will]

Why is it important to have a teacher?

Well, firstly the teacher is a kind of short cut. They've been there, done that and express what they've experienced when they speak, which might continuously keep pushing us in the right direction.

Another reason is because when I say blue, how do you know I don't mean green? When I say fear, maybe you mean frustration. You see, teachers are there to point us in the right direction. Let's say you are a really hardcore perfectionist and always worry about this and that. Then saying something like "try hard stick to the precepts", might just enhance your worry and fear. General statements are great, but are no substitute for one on one.

Anyway, Sangha is important. Keeping up practice is important. Honest inquiry is important, and all that. If one keeps inquiring honestly for how ever long, they're bound to come across some truth, and perhaps don't even recognize when it does come around.

When Dogen wrote the Shobogenzo, it was a great effort. The Shobogenzo can't be read only once. It must be continuously studied with honest effort or honest reference, not intellectual acquirement. Mostly, it should be dropped. That was Dogen's goal. Zazen, Buddha mind, Dropping.

Alright. That's enough from me this morning. Time for breakfast.

Gassho

[Jinho]

Re: Teachers

Why is it important to have a teacher?

Gassho

Um, Dogen wrote ".... to forget the self is to be enlightened by all phenomena". So where is this shortage of teachers? Fugen, I know, is particularly fond of stones. Myself I like Mountains and Rivers (homo sapiens make fine teachers too )

gassho,
rowan/jinho

[will]

Re: Teachers

Yes. Yes. Yes. But all rocks aside. There's something to be found in those jolly men.

Gassho

[Jinho]

Re: Teachers

Yes. Yes. Yes. But all rocks aside. There's something to be found in those jolly men.

Gassho

and women :wink:

[will]

Re: Teachers

Here's the thing right, Jundo's probably going to think I'm on drugs (kidding Jundo), your teacher is the rock and the rock is the rock and your teacher is your teacher. There are rocks, friends, teachers, caterpillars, and ants.

The thing with teachers is, we put to much in the them. Like they are some holy God or something. However, the whole point of their teaching is so we can stand on our own two feet, and know that a rock is our teacher as well.
We shouldn't discard them so quickly. And we shouldn't rely on them for everything.

In fact, we should give them a great big hug.

and women

I knew you were going to post that as soon as I left for the store.

You say tomato I say tomato.
It's all just ketchup :lol:

And yes, women are included in with the jolly men.

Gassho

[disastermouse]

Re: Teachers

Why is it important to have a teacher?

Gassho

Um, Dogen wrote ".... to forget the self is to be enlightened by all phenomena". So where is this shortage of teachers? Fugen, I know, is particularly fond of stones. Myself I like Mountains and Rivers (homo sapiens make fine teachers too )

gassho,
rowan/jinho

I think sometimes you need an actual fellow human being to help point out your blindspots. We all have them, but we needn't remain blind to those areas.

One can project all sorts of fantasies onto 'rocks' and 'mountains and rivers', but a really could teacher will resist those projections. In my experience.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Teachers

Thank you Chet. Thank you Will.
The whole issue of teachers is rather complex. Even more those days when Buddhism goes West and people don't buy anymore the old ways of bowing to the Guru.
A real teacher to student relationship takes place when the teacher helps you to breakfree from your old beliefs and patterns and eventually helps you to breakfree from him or her. Exactly like in a relationship, the chemistry has to be right and if it is not, it doesn't mean the teacher is wrong or you are wrong. It simply is just not right. And it is very important to have real people in front of us, not just mountain fantaisies or river deams. The role of the guy is to show us how to undo a lot of useless constructs and stuff. He or she needs to be human, to go through the same problems as we do, to experience the very same emotional ride. Otherwise, it is all in the air. And yes, we have also a big job to do as students, we have to walk the walk and learn to be humble in front of life itself and cultivate gratitude and joy. Not just a spiritual materialistic trip like: I only want the very best for my own important understanding of the Dharma!!!

Sometimes, they wear robes and have titles. Or just are lay people diligent and dedicated.

Nobodies, people without kesas, robes, titles or the likes make also excellent teachers...your crying child, your peers and collegues, the guy reading the newspaper in the bus...Situations, moments.

And yes, I am kind of tired to hear that master Dogen wrote the Shobogenzo. It is not exactly true. One side of the story. Dogen wrote Dogen. Shobogenzo wrote itself and Shobogenzo wrote Dogen.

And then get rid of all this. What is left?


Taigu

[Jinho]

Re: Teachers

Hi Will,

I certainly agree one can put too much into a teacher. I have been studying the koan "how can a Roshi make a mistake?" for several years and I think I am almost there. But I do have trouble with this "you, you, you". This "you, you, you" makes me think that the writer is making judgments about me personally and other people in general.

Maybe we should give everybody a great big hug?

Standing on one's own two feet is, for me, another way of saying "leaving home" (in the buddhist sense). And, of course, what other feet can I stand on?

I think "teacher" can function as a delusion. It is all just interactions of phenomena (home sapeins, trees, cats). It certainly has on one occasion for me.

thank you for your time,
Jinho

Here's the thing right, Jundo's probably going to think I'm on drugs (kidding Jundo), your teacher is the rock and the rock is the rock and your teacher is your teacher. There are rocks, friends, teachers, caterpillars, and ants.

The thing with teachers is, we put to much in the them. Like they are some holy God or something. However, the whole point of their teaching is so we can stand on our own two feet, and know that a rock is our teacher as well.
We shouldn't discard them so quickly. And we shouldn't rely on them for everything.

In fact, we should give them a great big hug.

and women

I knew you were going to post that as soon as I left for the store.

You say tomato I say tomato.
It's all just ketchup :lol:

And yes, women are included in with the jolly men.

Gassho

[will]

Re: Teachers

Jinho
I think "teacher" can function as a delusion. It is all just interactions of phenomena (home sapeins, trees, cats). It certainly has on one occasion for me.

Yes. It's all very imaginary and yet we still have to deal with "people" or "homosapiens" as you like to call them. Kind of like what we're doing now.

By the way, my names Will. I enjoy the movie Ratatouille. And so on. Long walks on the beach might be in there somewhere.

The thing is, is that those things aren't me and are. So...we talk. We chat.

Some people say it took a thousand years or so for a Buddha to appear in this world. How can one expect to understand the Dharma without a teacher of some sort. Bodhidharma recommended it. Dogen recommended it, and probably a few others. Anyway...Rocks are great and have their place. So do does, and beavers. But beavers can't smack you in the head (usually), and they definitely don't have a well known ability for writing prose.

Gassho

[Tobiishi]

Re: Teachers

Don't forget those of us who have (relatively) recently discovered this 'Zen' thing... where would we be without a living, speaking, typing teacher to grab our collar and say "Hey, dingbat, the trail is over here!"... We would certainly be lost, wandering in a vast forest of books, koans, YouTube videos, self-help gurus, and charismatic scam-artists.

When one goes looking for an authentic thing in this world, it is actually easier to find ten thousand cheap imitations first. I appreciate sincere teachers who know what they are doing and are willing to interact with 'beginners'...

So, you are all my teachers. Everyone here who is not trying to be devious and undermining (haven't pegged anyone for that yet!) or speaking from ignorance (aren't we all?) has the effect of being a teacher to every other one of us.

Having said that, I still feel that this is a Sangha, meeting in a zendo, which traditionally and historically (and necessarily) has one seat for the abbot. He's a teacher, and he's also the teacher.

gassho

[Shohei]

Re: Teachers

Don't forget those of us who have (relatively) recently discovered this 'Zen' thing... where would we be without a living, speaking, typing teacher to grab our collar and say "Hey, dingbat, the trail is over here!"... We would certainly be lost, wandering in a vast forest of books, koans, YouTube videos, self-help gurus, and charismatic scam-artists.

gassho

Indeed! Even "Seasoned new sitters" need that time to time... even the guide gets turned around Great thread by the way - thank you all for the posts... for give my stinginess as i have nothing to offer- and yet i get a lot.

Gassho, Shohei

[AlanLa]

Re: Teachers

Teachers need students to be teachers, and students need teachers to be students. They are one.

Students should not rely solely on teachers, and teachers should not rely solely on students. They are independent of each other.

[Dosho]

Re: Teachers

Let's say you are a really hardcore perfectionist and always worry about this and that. Then saying something like "try hard stick to the precepts", might just enhance your worry and fear. General statements are great, but are no substitute for one on one.

Thank you for this Will.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Tb]

Re: Teachers

Hi.

To open a can of worms, ask yourself, "what is a teacher"?

I often say that "a teacher is something that teaches something to something".

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Myoshin]

Re: Teachers

I think a teacher (Human ) is related to a parent who pushes a child on a swing. The child may ask for help to get started. The parent gives a push and the child is content. However the child maybe come dependent on the parent and the parent should let the child fuss and whine and not always push him or the child will never learn to swing on his own.

A teacher is there to help push one in the right direction, while still letting the student become independent.

Gassho,
Kyle