Zazen sitting for knee pain

[Ryker]

So greetings everyone, I hope everyone is doing well.

So I have, what I like to call "80 year old knees" even tho I'm not even to my mid 30's yet [emoji28], it doesn't matter if I sit in a chair, the floor, or crouching, they will always snap,crack,pop like ur favorite cereal brand and enough of it, they start to really hurt. (Yay injuries?)

So I can't do the lotus position, or half, the Burmese style style seems to fit the best as I sit crosslegged regularly, and while it creates no pain to uncross my legs there are two issues:

1. My knees don't fully touch the floor, maybe a cm or 3 off of it, very close.

2. Obviously pain/stiffness when I get up after (which may not be avoidable tbh).

Is there a position I may be unaware of to practice with to see if I can do it in regards to sitting properly/comfortable with no pain anyone can think of?

I've tried putting my legs under my butt and wow was that a BAD idea, instant discomfort/pain.

Sorry for running long,

Gasshō,
Ryker

Sat/Lah

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[Shinshi]

Two thoughts. Try putting your Zafu between your legs on edge and sit Seiza that way instead of your legs under your butt.

Stay with your Burmese position but put small cushions under your knees to support them.

You can see our recent guest speaker (Rev Heiku Jaime McLeod) do something similar here

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?22327-Special-Treeleaf-Event-Guest-Teacher-Rev-Heiku-Jaime-McLeod-Sunday-January-28th

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Ryker]

Two thoughts. Try putting your Zafu between your legs on edge and sit Seiza that way instead of your legs under your butt.

Stay with your Burmese position but put small cushions under your knees to support them.

You can see our recent guest speaker (Rev Heiku Jaime McLeod) do something similar here

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?22327-Special-Treeleaf-Event-Guest-Teacher-Rev-Heiku-Jaime-McLeod-Sunday-January-28th

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

So sorry for the delay in this Shinshi, just wanted to say thank u for the suggestions, I actually did the pillow thing under my knees the other day and it helps a lot, so I'll keep trying that, see how I feel.

Otherwise I'll switch the practicing the other style as well, I also look forward to the video

Gasshō
Ryker

Sat/Lah

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[Do Mi]

Another possibility: I sit in a chair and it works just fine!

Gassho,

Do Mi
Sat lah

[Kokuu]

Stay with your Burmese position but put small cushions under your knees to support them.

Yes, I was going to suggest the same as Shinshi.

Do Mi's suggestion is good too. From looking at pictures of Zen monks, it often seems that the proper way to practice is in some kind of cross-legged posture or seiza (kneeling). Sitting in a chair is perfectly fine and several of our members do that for the sake of their body.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Tosei]

Hi, Ryker,

I hear you. My knees, after 50 + years of jumping out of things, running very long distances, and carrying too much (myself included) from one place to another, are a perennial problem. Burmese works well with me if I have a particularly high zafu, otherwise it's horrible (for all the same reasons, my back ain't great). I was sitting with a sangha this weekend that among its 16 members, had double-stacked zafus, benches, chairs, support pillows, folded blankets holding bits up, as well as sideways zafus as Shinshi noted. Everybody was just sitting.

I hope you find the right thing for you, it can make almost all the difference.

Gassho,

Tōsei

{satlah}

[Nengei]

A few points to consider, nothing conclusive:

First, a degree of discomfort may be expected. Monks only look like they are sitting on a cloud of bliss. In truth, they may have a good deal of pain. However, pain that feels like it is sharp or causing damage is not okay, and a different position is called for.

Second, a lot of times muscular/joint pain in a particular body part is not coming from where we think it is, but from opposing or adjacent muscle groups. For example, many knee and lower back complaints are due to muscle tension or strain in various hip muscles. Any long-lasting or sudden pain, or pain that worsens, requires a face-to-face consult with a qualified expert.

Third, for me, the most helpful thing in my zazen comfort/position has been a consistent yoga practice that emphasizes, among other things, hip strength and flexibility. I generally do a pre-zazen workout of about 30 minutes, and if I don't, I can really tell the difference in how comfortably I am sitting, and how long I can sit before I really must reposition. Try different positions. I can sit Burmese for about 20-25 minutes. I can gain a little by switching my legs, but not a lot. Then I am kneeling using my cushion to take my weight off my knees. Then I am in a chair.

One thing a yoga practice will teach you is that how you sit, stand, walk, pick up and carry things, and tilt your head all make a difference in your overall, extended comfort. My point isn't necessarily to encourage you to become a yogi, but to consider doing these things in an aligned, balanced manner. If you watch videos with Japanese monks doing different tasks, you will see a pattern of thoughtfulness in how they go about things. They turn their body rather than twisting themselves. Many things we Westerners would do with one hand, they do with two. They don't wiggle around a lot when they are standing, but tend to stand balanced on both feet, using the balls of their feet at least as much as their heels. Whether for style or purpose, this way of moving really does help to create more comfort overall.

These things will not "fix" the issue, but may help you find approaches that are helpful.

Forgive my verbosity, and also any appearance I am trying to teach. I have no depth of knowledge or credentials for teaching Dharma or Zen practice.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[afellownoself]

Hi Ryker, I’m also in my 30s with a degenerative joint syndrome. I do both Burmese or chair. Sometimes I try to sit on the floor and it just ain’t happening so I’ll move to a chair. I use a drum throne because I can set the height and sit on the forward edge like a zafu.
I started doing hip stretches to open up my hips more which I found to greatly improve the strain on my knees.

Aaron
satlah

[Shonin Risa Bear]

A zero gravity chair is the centerpiece of this zoom hermitary, for reasons.

IMG_20231022_151007.jpg

gassho
ds sat/lah

[Ryker]

WOW!
THANK YOU so much everyone! I'm so sorry for getting back to everyone so late with all the helpful advice, had several busy days unfortunately.

But wow so much amazing info I am working thru getting thru, I'll be looking thru everything tomorrow as I'll be away today for most/all of the day.

Again thank you, I hope one or many of these practices/advice/suggestions for different chairs/tools will help.

Sorry for running long,

Gasshō, Ryker
Sat today/Lah

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[Chikyou]

I have found the most comfortable position for me is seiza, with a thick zabuton that would likely embarrass many monks with it's cushiness, and a zafu which is about half again the height of a standard one (not on its side, just regular because it's so tall!) - I purchased both from DharmaCrafts, I don't have any affiliation with them, but I do recommend them highly from personal experience.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Ryker]

I have found the most comfortable position for me is seiza, with a thick zabuton that would likely embarrass many monks with it's cushiness, and a zafu which is about half again the height of a standard one (not on its side, just regular because it's so tall!) - I purchased both from DharmaCrafts, I don't have any affiliation with them, but I do recommend them highly from personal experience.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

Oh thank u so much, I will check them out as I'm just using blankets right now for a zabuton, so check out the site.

Would u say the zabuton has helped u with pain or more the position u sit in?

Gasshō, Ryker
Sat/Lah

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[Chikyou]

Oh thank u so much, I will check them out as I'm just using blankets right now for a zabuton, so check out the site.

Would u say the zabuton has helped u with pain or more the position u sit in?

Gasshō, Ryker
Sat/Lah

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

I don't sit much without the zabuton so I can't really compare, but seiza is the only position I can sit in for any length of time comfortably (except a chair). Certainly I think the zabuton helps too!

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Showan]

Hi Ryker,

I have had success with a kneeling chair like this: https://www.upliftdesk.com/ergonomic...y-uplift-desk/ for longer sessions. I hope you find an answer that works for you!

Gassho, Max
satlah