How To React To Meditation's Momentary Bliss?

[Rotasu]

Hey everybody. I made a realization during meditation that I found interesting and worth pondering over. To get there, though, we need a brief history for my experiences with meditation and Buddhism.

What got me into Buddhism initially was a meditation class I took in college. I was always curious about it as a practice and it was that or PE, so it felt like a no brainer. I was taught to do breathing meditation and was taught about the Buddha's story of finding enlightenment (albeit very briefly). It was incredible and it confirmed things that I was already discovering on my own. Namely, as I suffer from an anxiety disorder and OCD, I found that not focusing too much on how much time I have for any given thing or just generally being more mindful and aware made me feel much better. It helped me to deal with the issues I struggle with.

I guess somewhere I got confused about whether it is good to feel these ways due to meditation. I stopped doing breathing meditation perhaps a year and a half ago, and instead I've been doing shikantaza. It has its merits, for sure, and I do think it's good to do for the dissolution of ego and general awareness, but I found it wasn't relaxing me quite as well as breathing meditation had. I tried breathing meditation again last night and, sure enough, I felt that wonderful, relaxed, peaceful feeling again, almost like a "high" for lack of a better word. But I also know that a lot of people say we shouldn't meditate with any purpose in mind, that we should meditate just to meditate. So I wanted to know if it's generally okay to meditate with both styles, at different times. I want to continue shikantaza, but sometimes I do want the deep relaxation that comes from a nice session of breathing meditation. It helps me to manage my symptoms and allows me to remain mindful rather easily for about an hour or so after.

However, like all things, this is impermanent and those feelings do go away. I get that. But I wanted to know what everybody here thinks, do any of you also participate in breathing meditation? Does shikantaza make you feel that deeply relaxed feeling? I always feel like I may be doing shikantaza wrong, just because my brain gets so lost in long strings of thought before I can pull myself out of it. And maybe I just need more practice.

But what does everybody here think?

[Houzan]

How To React To Meditation's Momentary Bliss?

I feel deeply relaxed while doing shikantaza and after, but it’s an existential type of relaxation, a far deeper relaxation, a relaxation that somehow makes me feel relaxed when tense.
I would try to let go of worrying about doing shikantaza “correct” as this worrying itself, in my experience, becomes an obstacle.
Someone said (don’t remember who): “the only mistake you can do with sitting is to not sit.”
I needed quite a lot of coaching from Jundo and this Sangha before I fully deared to just sit, and let completely go of right and wrong [emoji120]
It is really as Jundo says: it’s the most natural and easy thing to do.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

[Tosei]

Hello, Rotasu,

I spent many years in search of the movie-version of enlightenment or just that feeling of calm and peace that can come with sitting. And it was fine, and sometimes even wonderful. And then there's what we do, which is something else altogether. It can complement, I'm sure, breath work or any of the other meditative/mindfulness practices out there, just as it can Christianity or atheism. But it is a different thing altogether, and it took a while for me to discover that its lack of such 'benefits' is what, in tandem with the teachings of Dogen and his heirs, made it the home for me. The non-striving, the non-wanting, the non-ness of it all is what makes it work, what makes it as many used to say, medicine.

I do feel relaxed afterwards, if only because I've not been overly (not not at all, mind you) wrapped up in the whirlwind world of our time off the cushion. I've had a taste of the world as it is without this fantasy life I live day-to-day, just as Dogen suggested. For me, this practice is just that. And yes, you, like me, need more of it.

Sorry to carry on so,

Gassho,

Tōsei

[[satlah]]

[Alina]

Hi Rotasu,

I've practiced yoga (including breathing exercises, pranayama) and zazen in parallel for many years, and I always felt both practices complemented each other, I don't think there really is a conflict at all between the 2.

Then I had children and the time I had available for either practice became very small or zero, so I had to adapt, sit only "short sits", because I only had 10 minutes or so. And what happened many times to me during those "mini zazen" was that I was so tired, or so stressed (or both), that "only shikantaza" was not enough for me to wind down, and then the 10-15 minutes where over and I felt even worse than before. So I combined the 2, I started doing a breathing exercise, and then simply continue with shikantaza, and that really helped me to continue practicing zazen as best as was possible at the time.
I struggle with anxiety too, and breathing exercises are part of my day, I take breaks in the morning and afternoon to practice "coherent breathing" (5 inhale - 5 exhale) for just a couple of minutes and it really helps to clear my mind and feel more at ease.

This is just my experience, I am not a teacher, only sharing it in case it can be useful for you.

Gassho,

Alina
stlah

[Seiko]

Hey everybody. I made a realization during meditation that I found interesting and worth pondering over. To get there, though, we need a brief history for my experiences with meditation and Buddhism.

What got me into Buddhism initially was a meditation class I took in college. I was always curious about it as a practice and it was that or PE, so it felt like a no brainer. I was taught to do breathing meditation and was taught about the Buddha's story of finding enlightenment (albeit very briefly). It was incredible and it confirmed things that I was already discovering on my own. Namely, as I suffer from an anxiety disorder and OCD, I found that not focusing too much on how much time I have for any given thing or just generally being more mindful and aware made me feel much better. It helped me to deal with the issues I struggle with.

I guess somewhere I got confused about whether it is good to feel these ways due to meditation. I stopped doing breathing meditation perhaps a year and a half ago, and instead I've been doing shikantaza. It has its merits, for sure, and I do think it's good to do for the dissolution of ego and general awareness, but I found it wasn't relaxing me quite as well as breathing meditation had. I tried breathing meditation again last night and, sure enough, I felt that wonderful, relaxed, peaceful feeling again, almost like a "high" for lack of a better word. But I also know that a lot of people say we shouldn't meditate with any purpose in mind, that we should meditate just to meditate. So I wanted to know if it's generally okay to meditate with both styles, at different times. I want to continue shikantaza, but sometimes I do want the deep relaxation that comes from a nice session of breathing meditation. It helps me to manage my symptoms and allows me to remain mindful rather easily for about an hour or so after.

However, like all things, this is impermanent and those feelings do go away. I get that. But I wanted to know what everybody here thinks, do any of you also participate in breathing meditation? Does shikantaza make you feel that deeply relaxed feeling? I always feel like I may be doing shikantaza wrong, just because my brain gets so lost in long strings of thought before I can pull myself out of it. And maybe I just need more practice.

But what does everybody here think?

Firstly, let me say, I am very much a novice and never claim to teach - I can only speak from personal experience.
Zazen - and any feelings following zazen - may be the same for a while, then change, or be different every day. It's all OK.
Keep sitting.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Kaitan]

Firstly, let me say, I am very much a novice and never claim to teach - I can only speak from personal experience.
Zazen - and any feelings following zazen - may be the same for a while, then change, or be different every day. It's all OK.
Keep sitting.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

stlah, Kaitan

[Rotasu]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I forgot to sign off on my original post, so that's my bad, but you can all call me Dylan. That's my name and how I usually sign. I'm appreciative of everyone taking the time to share their thoughts on the matter and I'm glad to see that it's not a strict "shikantaza and only shikantaza" approach.

Also, can somebody tell me what stlah means? Lol. I assume it is "sat today ... " but I cannot make out the rest!

Thanks,
Dylan
Sat!

[Doshin]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I forgot to sign off on my original post, so that's my bad, but you can all call me Dylan. That's my name and how I usually sign. I'm appreciative of everyone taking the time to share their thoughts on the matter and I'm glad to see that it's not a strict "shikantaza and only shikantaza" approach.

Also, can somebody tell me what stlah means? Lol. I assume it is "sat today ... " but I cannot make out the rest!

Thanks,
Dylan
Sat!

Lend a Hand. That and Sattoday are asked to be done before posting

Doshin
Stlah

[Bion]

How To React To Meditation's Momentary Bliss?

Thank you all for your thoughts. I forgot to sign off on my original post, so that's my bad, but you can all call me Dylan. That's my name and how I usually sign. I'm appreciative of everyone taking the time to share their thoughts on the matter and I'm glad to see that it's not a strict "shikantaza and only shikantaza" approach.

Also, can somebody tell me what stlah means? Lol. I assume it is "sat today ... " but I cannot make out the rest!

Thanks,
Dylan
Sat!

As Doshin says: lah stands for lent a hand, or an acknowledgment that we have not neglected to do something kind and selfless to actively embody our bodhisattva vow of helping all beings. We type that AFTER we’ve actually done something. Same as sat, to acknowledge we have practiced zazen, acknowledging that is our core practice, with discussion and study in toe.
You can see more about lah here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...T-before-CHAT!

Gassho
Sat and lah

[Rich]

Don’t check yourself, just wake up. Whether it’s breathing practice or just sitting, just wake up to now

Sat/lah


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[RobO]

I will start by saying, I am not a teacher, and a beginner. This is mostly just my not very experienced opinion!

I wanted to combine Vipassana and Zazen. Jundo said they are a bit like going on a football pitch but for two different games, so to be very careful you dont end up playing the wrong game entirely, as they look so similar. I think this applies here as well. I decided not to do Vipassana as I felt my Zazen wasn't "drilled in enough". My understanding of both concentration and Shikantaza practices, there is almost the opposite in terms of directing of attention, and in terms of expectation of results (not trivial differences).

I do metta (beyond the recommendations here) because its just *that* valuable to me. You seem like you have a similar reason for concentration practice, so I completely understand, and as I also have OCD I understand why you are thinking a lot about it .

Practically, I put the most important (or most likely to be affected) first in the day, and as much space between them. There's other things you could do to help "cue" the separation (different location / routine, sitting position, eyes shut vs open etc). Anything that separates the two might help you get into that "mode".

Sorry ran very long.
Gassho,
Rob

Sat/lah