last night's sitting

[Jundo]

Re: last night's sitting

If you wanted to pinpoint exactly what you were, and I mean the part of you that is aware and "existent", you will find that your awareness is seperate from the percieved. This all sounds conceptual, but its the very experience which is most important.

Oh, you are chasing after some "watcher" "inner you" or other Vedantic whatever. Fiddle faddle.

If you don't know who you are, you aint gonna find him there.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: last night's sitting

Chasing? Him?

It seems that you are already an expert on such topics and can apparently read my mind as well!

Well, tell me more about your mind, then. What are you referring to?

Gassho, Jundo

[Jinho]

Re: last night's sitting

Hi.

Well, what to say in reply?
On the one hand i should yell at you, on the other say thanks.
I think i'll just say "shall we sit with that?"

Mtfbwy
Tb

Hi again,

You've lost me. Wherefore "I should yell at you"? You are welcome to if you feel like it. We can Katz! together if you wish? But I think maybe there is some meaning I am not getting?

cheers,
rowan/jinho

[Jinho]

Re: last night's sitting

If you wanted to pinpoint exactly what you were, and I mean the part of you that is aware and "existent", you will find that your awareness is seperate from the percieved. This all sounds conceptual, but its the very experience which is most important.

Oh, you are chasing after some "watcher" "inner you" or other Vedantic whatever. Fiddle faddle.

If you don't know who you are, you aint gonna find him there.

Gassho, Jundo

Hi Jundo!

You have also lost me, I thought we are all here finding out more and more who we are (and aren't). Are you making the point that bod/breath/mind are all one? (see all those books I have read DO come in handy ).

gassho,
rowan

[Tb]

Re: last night's sitting

Hi.

Well, what to say in reply?
On the one hand i should yell at you, on the other say thanks.
I think i'll just say "shall we sit with that?"

Mtfbwy
Tb

Hi again,

You've lost me. Wherefore "I should yell at you"? You are welcome to if you feel like it. We can Katz! together if you wish? But I think maybe there is some meaning I am not getting?

cheers,
rowan/jinho

Hi.

Yelling is for the "you did it better than me"-part, which is wrong.
I just put what you said in a shorter sentence.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[disastermouse]

Re: last night's sitting

Vedanta isn't all bullshit.

IMHO.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: last night's sitting

If you wanted to pinpoint exactly what you were, and I mean the part of you that is aware and "existent", you will find that your awareness is seperate from the percieved. This all sounds conceptual, but its the very experience which is most important.

Oh, you are chasing after some "watcher" "inner you" or other Vedantic whatever. Fiddle faddle.

If you don't know who you are, you aint gonna find him there.

Gassho, Jundo

Hi Jundo!

You have also lost me, I thought we are all here finding out more and more who we are (and aren't). Are you making the point that bod/breath/mind are all one? (see all those books I have read DO come in handy ).

gassho,
rowan

Hi,

I want to wait first until Empty clarifies what he meant, cause I'm already reading things into his words that perhaps I should not.

Gassho, J

[will]

Re: last night's sitting

Thoughts are absolutely part of you. That's like saying my arm is not attached to my shoulder.

Of course, we could speculate what is and isn't you. But why?

KJ:
Isn't that just conceptual though? I am the body, I have an arm, that is all just conceptual. Can the arm percieve? No, there is something else doing the percieving. What is it that says "I exist", its not the arm, is it?

Yes, the "I" thing.

I was aware of that when making my post. However, you failed to read the other half. We can't throw thought away. We really have no choice in the matter. Thinking is part of our experience. Simple as that.

Don't you think it would be better to allow thinking as apposed to shunning it?

Thinking that it's not thinking is the very same trap that, it seems, is trying to be avoided.

"There is no experience." Even in saying this, it's gone.

Gassho

[will]

Re: last night's sitting

Exactly.

Gassho

[Eika]

Re: last night's sitting

"what am i?" is a non-intellectual question.

I don't understand the purpose of this statement, or its relevance to what I said.

You are better off not doing zazen if you want to quiet your mind.

I don't understand the helpfulness of this statement to a beginner. If Jundo agrees with this statement, then he must have allowed me to join Treeleaf for some other purpose, because I cited this reason as a big reason for me wanting to join.

If I, as a beginner, am so naive as to be tedious to anyone, than I invite those afflicted to not read my posts. I will also post less, as it seems I am too new to participate constructively. My apologies.

gassho
Julia

Hi Julia,

Please don't hesitate to post.

A lot gets lost in written expression, especially in an informal medium like an internet forum.
Things that sound abrupt or curt may not have been written in anger. One thing I've learned is to give everyone on here the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to be constructive and helpful. So, I try to read all posts as if they came from someone I know to be a gentle, helpful person.

Keep the questions coming, they are good for us all. You may feel like you started a shit-storm, but I see it as a bubbling-up of overdue "inquiries that prompt discussion" to paraphrase Doshin Cantor (his distinction between "questions that need an answer" and "inquiries that provoke responses" was really big for me).

Gassho,
Bill

[murasaki]

Re: last night's sitting

Hi Julia,

Please don't hesitate to post.

A lot gets lost in written expression, especially in an informal medium like an internet forum.
Things that sound abrupt or curt may not have been written in anger. One thing I've learned is to give everyone on here the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to be constructive and helpful. So, I try to read all posts as if they came from someone I know to be a gentle, helpful person.

Keep the questions coming, they are good for us all. You may feel like you started a shit-storm, but I see it as a bubbling-up of overdue "inquiries that prompt discussion" to paraphrase Doshin Cantor (his distinction between "questions that need an answer" and "inquiries that provoke responses" was really big for me).

Gassho,
Bill

Bill, your first paragraph is a valuable reminder; your second, a valuable point of information. Thanks to you, and to everyone who took the time to clarify what needed to be clarified.

I would like to add, though, that it would be good to use care in talking to beginners until one learns more about their backgrounds. I would venture to say that not many people start out in Zen with the "correct" intention (i.e. having no intention at all). I know I communicate with a slightly-too-chipper demeanour, and there's a cute smile on my avatar, but if you understood my current (very serious) circumstances and all of the events and reasons giving rise to my foray into Zen, you would understand my profound frustration at being told that I'd be "better off not doing zazen".

gassho
Julia

[Dosho]

Re: last night's sitting

Hi Julia,

I would second everything Bill said and when I first came to Treeleaf I had the same thought that you did: Give newbies some space and don't get in their face with ideas that could scare them away. I still wince at some of the responses people get and have watched more than a few disappear after a heated thread. However, recently when I thought to step in after a person felt they were being attacked I just let the thread take its course for a couple days to see what would happen. Eventually the person in question felt that it had been a very valuable discussion and actually thanked the "attacker" for helping them to see things in a new light.

I'll only speak for myself when I say that I think bumping up against these posts (and people) who rub us the wrong way is an essential part to our practice here at Treeleaf. For me it was taking stock of how much I let what someone said bother me and realizing I was doing that to myself. And I don't think there is one person here who wouldn't describe their reasons for coming to zen as very serious, I know mine are.

So, I say all that with the hope that you'll ride out the storm and at least consider the fact that it might ultimately be something productive. And if after some time and consideration you decide that what the person said wasn't helpful or productive at all...then just let it drop. And if it still bugs you, please feel free to post about it and I guarantee you there will be a lot of people here to support you. Sometimes letting others stumble a bit can be the greatest gift we could offer. However, that doesn't mean we'll let someone continually get in your face and flame you...Jundo wouldn't let that happen and neither wwould the rest of us.

I hope that was helpful...I think I still would have felt hurt or angry in your shoes and a message like mine wouldn't have changed that one bit. Still, I wanted to reach out and I hope you'll hang around with us zennies some more.

Gassho,
Scott

[Jundo]

Re: last night's sitting

About the only "rule" around here ... besides trying to sit Shikantaza Zazen each day ... is to be kind to each other.

Gassho, J

[Shohei]

Re: last night's sitting

Im not a selfish and sadistic asshole who likes to see beginners fall off their horses. I was simply stating that zen shouldn't be used as a means to end. But rather to see your own reflection, right now, right here.

Thinking is not the problem, its the lack of space between you and the thoughts which cause the problems.

Well said.

Be nice if i would leave it there but of course i gotta add my 2 cents here too

Im my personal experience (take with a pinch of salt... lick of lemon and shot of tequila if need be), my beginning steps in to Zen Buddhism were to use it[zen] as a means to an end. I had limited knowledge of what this practice really was about and I so I thought EH I like the sounds of this and since im already in sync (oh oh ohoh oh ohohohoh oh ohohohoh,,, THE RIGHT STUFF!) with most of the basic teachings (That i had read on the interwebz) and I should give it a go and see. Maybe I would become enlightened and get a cool new Do... maybe stop having panic attacks and be able to tolerate assholes and impress my friends with my new found balance.

So far none of those really happened :P (well the panic attacks are almost gone but they still crop up) And yet Im still practicing with every fibre of my being and it all really started from my misguided understanding and drive.The teachers and community (one really) helped along the way to show me the way through sharing there ideas and experiences and through their actions. And oh man im still learning!! I think there will always be ongoing learning so long as we practice.

Gassho Shohei

[Tobiishi]

Re: last night's sitting

my beginning steps in to Zen Buddhism were to use it[zen] as a means to an end.

Guilty!

But now that I've learned a bit, and lurked and listened and questioned, and sat and sat, I gotta say its not what I thought, but something totally different that's worth everything and nothing at the same time. I'm just glad I'm here. (and you too)

gassho