Verse of atonement: "created" vs "committed"

[Chikyou]

Dear Sangha,

Over the course of the past year and especially in the last couple of months, I've heard various Inos recite the Verse of Atonement. About half of the time, the word "created" is used instead of "committed".

Is there a reason for this, aside from personal preference? Is it a translation difference, or has there been a change in the liturgy? Is one preferred over the other?

Gassho,
Sat
Kelly

[Kokuu]

Hi Kelly

I only have 'committed' in my chant book so would be interested to hear if others do chant 'created' instead, and if that was ever a translation we used here.

At the Sotoshu website, they use 'perpetrated' which seems similar to commited.

I now entirely repent
all the evil actions I have perpetrated in the past,
arising from beginningless greed, anger, and delusion,
and manifested through body, speech, and mind.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Guest]

Dear Sangha,

Over the course of the past year and especially in the last couple of months, I've heard various Inos recite the Verse of Atonement. About half of the time, the word "created" is used instead of "committed".

Is there a reason for this, aside from personal preference? Is it a translation difference, or has there been a change in the liturgy? Is one preferred over the other?

Gassho,
Sat
Kelly

Hi Kelly,

I noticed that the last time I recited it, I used created instead of committed. Somehow, the older Eko translation got funneled down into my current chant book. I have since changed it back to the current translation which is "committed." Either way works I think. An early version of the Sotoshu version reads "...all my past and harmful karma..." The way I understand it is that Karma is related to action or activity. Created means you created it, but committed simply means an act was done and it was not necessarily purposeful or intentional or maybe it was, none the less an act was committed (done) through words, thoughts, and actions that you recognize brings harm to self and others and so offer atonement for it.

Please take what I say here with a grain of salt. I am just a novice priest learning about these things as I travel this path. Someone with more understanding of this may shed more clarity on this than I am able to provide.

Gassho,
Daiman
St/LAH

[Guest]

Hi Kelly,

I noticed that the last time I recited it, I used created instead of committed. Somehow, the older Eko translation got funneled down into my current chant book. I have since changed it back to the current translation which is "committed." Either way works I think. An early version of the Sotoshu version reads "...all my past and harmful karma..." The way I understand it is that Karma is related to action or activity. Created means you created it, but committed simply means an act was done and it was not necessarily purposeful or intentional or maybe it was, none the less an act was committed (done) through words, thoughts, and actions that you recognize brings harm to self and others and so offer atonement for it.

Please take what I say here with a grain of salt. I am just a novice priest learning about these things as I travel this path. Someone with more understanding of this may shed more clarity on this than I am able to provide.

Gassho,
Daiman
St/LAH

Ooh, I see Kokuu was posting at the same time as me.

Daiman
St/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Kelly,

Please recall that these are all English interpretations, not originally in English but in Chinese, expressed by various translators with many right ways to say something. All the English versions are just somebody's interpretation and expression. There are many good ways, and we can debate which is a little better here or there. The older Sōtō School Scriptures for Daily Services and Practice has “All my past and harmful karma, / born from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, / through body, speech, and mind, / I now fully avow.”

Our version came from my old mentor in Maezumi Roshi's Lineage, Doshin Cantor. Many (not all) in that Lineage use "committed." For example:

Barry Magid - All harmful actions ever committed by me since of old https://www.ordinarymind.com/talks/1...ibly-keep-them

Also, I notice, Domyo Burk (of the Zen Studies Podcast), is very close to ours

All harmful karma ever committed by me since of old,
On account of my beginningless greed, anger, and ignorance,
Born of my body, mouth, and thought,
Now I atone for it all.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B1t...usp=drive_link

They all come from a Chinese original that looks like this:

懺悔文

我昔所造諸悪業
皆由無始貪瞋痴
従身口意之所生
一切我今皆懺悔

The key expression is 造諸悪業.

Now, recall that, first, Chinese, unlike English, is written in "blocks" that literally read like this

我 me/I
昔 the past
所 what is/that is
造 make/commit
諸 various
悪 bad/evil
業 karma

So, the key Chinese character is 造. What is 造? It literally means:

to make; to build; to manufacture
造船 ― zàochuán ― to build a ship
仿造 ― fǎngzào ― to produce something after a model; to copy
創造／创造 ― chuàngzào ― to create
造房子 ― zào fángzǐ ― to build a house

But Buddhist dictionaries have:

To create. [作, 造] 〔三家龜鑑 HBJ 7.619c16〕 [Charles Muller]
To do, perform. [行] [Charles Muller]
To become. [成] [Charles Muller]

Why "do" or "perform," rather than just "create?" Because Karma (業) is the good or bad ACTION done by body, speech or in thought (Function, action (Skt. karman; karma, kriyā; Tib. bya ba, las, 'phrin las) 作用. Deeds and their effects on the character, especially in their relation to succeeding forms of transmigration ... [Charles Muller; source(s): Ui, Nakamura, Stephen Hodge, JEBD, Yokoi, Iwanami] http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin...pl?q=%E6%A5%AD)

Now, Karma is also understood as a kind of "energy" that is created by the action, and results in a Karmic effect. (Karma is also understood as the morally-charged energy in which each being survives death for further rebirth or metempsychosis, shown in the form of distinct (karmic) effects. Thus karma also refers to the traces, remainder or results of these three kinds of karmic activity; the latent functional energies—causes and conditions coming from the actions which will eventually bring about some other result; future retribution, and either good or evil transmigration 分別果. [Charles Muller])

So, Karma itself means the ACTION done which makes a kind of "energy" that produces a Karmic effect.

For that reason, one could say that one is "creating" that energy and effect. HOWEVER, the apology and atonement in the chant is not for the energy or effect, but for DOING the harmful ACTION! So, "created" is not the right word here. Maybe one could say that one is "making/creating an action" (which is actually correct to say in Chinese/Japanese, but sounds a bit strange in English although we sometimes say "make a move" or "make an action" I suppose.) But the focus is "doing" or "committing" the harmful act. One is not atoning for the energy created (that is going to effect you alone, sometime later). One is atoning for what was DONE in act, word or thought.

So, I dare say that, while not wrong, "created" is not the best translation choice here. "Done" or "committed" is more accurate and, for reasons of sound and poetry, "committed" just sounds better than "done."

According to scholars, the verse comes from “Samantabhadra’s Vows,” chapter 40 of the Avatamsaka Sūtra (Hua-yan or "Flower Garland" Sutra), which was first translated from Sanskrit into Chinese by Buddhabhadra in 419 to 420.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

PS - I really like that current Soto-shu "perpetrated" that Kokuu mentioned. It sounds like we need to call a detective!

[Jundo]

PPS - I am going to add this discussion to our little section about our chants here:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?291-About-our-Treeleaf-Chants

[Chikyou]

Hi Kelly,

Please recall that these are all English interpretations, not originally in English but in Chinese, expressed by various translators with many right ways to say something. All the English versions are just somebody's interpretation and expression. There are many good ways, and we can debate which is a little better here or there. The older Sōtō School Scriptures for Daily Services and Practice has “All my past and harmful karma, / born from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, / through body, speech, and mind, / I now fully avow.”

Our version came from my old mentor in Maezumi Roshi's Lineage, Doshin Cantor. Many (not all) in that Lineage use "committed." For example:

Barry Magid - All harmful actions ever committed by me since of old https://www.ordinarymind.com/talks/1...ibly-keep-them

Also, I notice, Domyo Burk (of the Zen Studies Podcast), is very close to ours



They all come from a Chinese original that looks like this:

懺悔文

我昔所造諸悪業
皆由無始貪瞋痴
従身口意之所生
一切我今皆懺悔

The key expression is 造諸悪業.

Now, recall that, first, Chinese, unlike English, is written in "blocks" that literally read like this

我 me/I
昔 the past
所 what is/that is
造 make/commit
諸 various
悪 bad/evil
業 karma

So, the key Chinese character is 造. What is 造? It literally means:



But Buddhist dictionaries have:



Why "do" or "perform," rather than just "create?" Because Karma (業) is the good or bad ACTION done by body, speech or in thought (Function, action (Skt. karman; karma, kriyā; Tib. bya ba, las, 'phrin las) 作用. Deeds and their effects on the character, especially in their relation to succeeding forms of transmigration ... [Charles Muller; source(s): Ui, Nakamura, Stephen Hodge, JEBD, Yokoi, Iwanami] http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin...pl?q=%E6%A5%AD)

Now, Karma is also understood as a kind of "energy" that is created by the action, and results in a Karmic effect. (Karma is also understood as the morally-charged energy in which each being survives death for further rebirth or metempsychosis, shown in the form of distinct (karmic) effects. Thus karma also refers to the traces, remainder or results of these three kinds of karmic activity; the latent functional energies—causes and conditions coming from the actions which will eventually bring about some other result; future retribution, and either good or evil transmigration 分別果. [Charles Muller])

So, Karma itself means the ACTION done which makes a kind of "energy" that produces a Karmic effect.

For that reason, one could say that one is "creating" that energy and effect. HOWEVER, the apology and atonement in the chant is not for the energy or effect, but for DOING the harmful ACTION! So, "created" is not the right word here. Maybe one could say that one is "making/creating an action" (which is actually correct to say in Chinese/Japanese, but sounds a bit strange in English although we sometimes say "make a move" or "make an action" I suppose.) But the focus is "doing" or "committing" the harmful act. One is not atoning for the energy created (that is going to effect you alone, sometime later). One is atoning for what was DONE in act, word or thought.

So, I dare say that, while not wrong, "created" is not the best translation choice here. "Done" or "committed" is more accurate and, for reasons of sound and poetry, "committed" just sounds better than "done."

According to scholars, the verse comes from “Samantabhadra’s Vows,” chapter 40 of the Avatamsaka Sūtra (Hua-yan or "Flower Garland" Sutra), which was first translated from Sanskrit into Chinese by Buddhabhadra in 419 to 420.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

PS - I really like that current Soto-shu "perpetrated" that Kokuu mentioned. It sounds like we need to call a detective!

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Guest]

Verse of atonement: "created" vs "committed"

Thank you Jundo for the clarification. My interpretation of this is in line with the idea that “committed” is the better way to translate this.

Gassho
Daiman
St


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Seiko]

Hi Kelly,

Please recall that these are all English interpretations, not originally in English but in Chinese, expressed by various translators with many right ways to say something. All the English versions are just somebody's interpretation and expression. There are many good ways, and we can debate which is a little better here or there. The older Sōtō School Scriptures for Daily Services and Practice has “All my past and harmful karma, / born from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, / through body, speech, and mind, / I now fully avow.”

Our version came from my old mentor in Maezumi Roshi's Lineage, Doshin Cantor. Many (not all) in that Lineage use "committed." For example:

Barry Magid - All harmful actions ever committed by me since of old https://www.ordinarymind.com/talks/1...ibly-keep-them

Also, I notice, Domyo Burk (of the Zen Studies Podcast), is very close to ours



They all come from a Chinese original that looks like this:

懺悔文

我昔所造諸悪業
皆由無始貪瞋痴
従身口意之所生
一切我今皆懺悔

The key expression is 造諸悪業.

Now, recall that, first, Chinese, unlike English, is written in "blocks" that literally read like this

我 me/I
昔 the past
所 what is/that is
造 make/commit
諸 various
悪 bad/evil
業 karma

So, the key Chinese character is 造. What is 造? It literally means:



But Buddhist dictionaries have:



Why "do" or "perform," rather than just "create?" Because Karma (業) is the good or bad ACTION done by body, speech or in thought (Function, action (Skt. karman; karma, kriyā; Tib. bya ba, las, 'phrin las) 作用. Deeds and their effects on the character, especially in their relation to succeeding forms of transmigration ... [Charles Muller; source(s): Ui, Nakamura, Stephen Hodge, JEBD, Yokoi, Iwanami] http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin...pl?q=%E6%A5%AD)

Now, Karma is also understood as a kind of "energy" that is created by the action, and results in a Karmic effect. (Karma is also understood as the morally-charged energy in which each being survives death for further rebirth or metempsychosis, shown in the form of distinct (karmic) effects. Thus karma also refers to the traces, remainder or results of these three kinds of karmic activity; the latent functional energies—causes and conditions coming from the actions which will eventually bring about some other result; future retribution, and either good or evil transmigration 分別果. [Charles Muller])

So, Karma itself means the ACTION done which makes a kind of "energy" that produces a Karmic effect.

For that reason, one could say that one is "creating" that energy and effect. HOWEVER, the apology and atonement in the chant is not for the energy or effect, but for DOING the harmful ACTION! So, "created" is not the right word here. Maybe one could say that one is "making/creating an action" (which is actually correct to say in Chinese/Japanese, but sounds a bit strange in English although we sometimes say "make a move" or "make an action" I suppose.) But the focus is "doing" or "committing" the harmful act. One is not atoning for the energy created (that is going to effect you alone, sometime later). One is atoning for what was DONE in act, word or thought.

So, I dare say that, while not wrong, "created" is not the best translation choice here. "Done" or "committed" is more accurate and, for reasons of sound and poetry, "committed" just sounds better than "done."

According to scholars, the verse comes from “Samantabhadra’s Vows,” chapter 40 of the Avatamsaka Sūtra (Hua-yan or "Flower Garland" Sutra), which was first translated from Sanskrit into Chinese by Buddhabhadra in 419 to 420.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

PS - I really like that current Soto-shu "perpetrated" that Kokuu mentioned. It sounds like we need to call a detective!

Bows
Seiko
stlah